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Rob Ingram is a successful, well-respected professional who works for the city of Portland. But a couple of decades ago, that career would have seemed completely unattainable. He says until his mid-20's he might as well have been a member of a gang. His brother and friends were, and he did many of the same things they did. He's been stabbed, shot, and arrested. He buried eight close friends and family members. His life-changing epiphany came after his brother was sentenced to 60 years in prison.
He ultimately decided there must have been a reason that he was still alive and free, and that he had a responsibility to give back. And that's what he's been doing since the early 1990s. He now heads the Office of Youth Violence Prevention at the City of Portland. And he informally mentors kids who call him "Uncle Rob."
About every other week he convenes a meeting with all the various agencies and organizations the city works with to address gang violence. There are community organizations like Brother's & Sister's Keepers, the Gang Enforcement Team and a youth gang police task force that's just been reinstated.
We wanted to know how all those efforts are working. And about another development since the last time we talked about gangs and efforts to reduce gun violence: Multnomah County's Department of Community Justice has a plan to use GPS monitoring on some youths who have been involved in gangs. How do all of these strategies fit into the larger picture of addressing gang violence?
Have you been affected by gang violence? How? Have you ever thought about joining a gang? Why? Are you working to prevent gang violence? What would help you do your job?
GUESTS:
- Juan Carlos: 18-year-old former gang member
- Valerie: 20-year-old former gang member
- Dave Koch: Juvenile services division director for Multnomah County's Department of Community Justice
- Rob Ingram: Director of the City of Portland's Office of Youth Violence Prevention
Tagged as: gangs · police · youth
Photo credit: SoulRider.222 / Creative Commons
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John, is your <Caps Lock> key broken, or stuck?
You don't seem to realize that it is on, and that ALL-CAPS is the on-line equivalent of SHOUTING. You have several posts under the topic for Thursday, Oct 21 in all caps, and now this one.
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Assuming we are speaking about only black criminals, then, still, what is your point? It doesn’t seem like the subject is about blaming anyone specifically, it seems to be more about how we can fix the problem of gang violence.
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John, all people are, desperately social, hopelessly tribal, binary&linear thinking, sense making creatures. Understand that, and you can understand the commonality of gang behavior, and the behavior of any other group of people, (including groups you and I belong to).
This is only a starting point to solving the problem of gang violence.
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dirtguy>
. some groups of people are better able to adapt their social, tribal, creature behavior the standards of civilized society, some less so.
perhaps there is some truth in that saying about taking them out of the subtropical evolutionary environment but you cant take the sub tropical evolutionary environment out the them
perhaps the differences in the size of the prefrontal cortex(controls rational behavior/sponteniaty/self contro)) should be a factor in the analysis of the "causes of gang violence"
I would be interested if open minded libs(including juan williams) would ever DARE consider this
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John, your comments can be seen as a man desperately trying to assemble a gang. People really are the same the whole world around. Welcome! It's OK!!!!
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As a long time Portland resident I remeber the KBC and Piru going at it in North and Inner North-East, I remeber the shooting of Ray Ray and the acts of Lil Smurf... That era started off with less momentum than we are seeing now.
The real problem our city has is a weak mayor - he cares more about bicycles and dog parks then youth being gunned down on his streets. I make that assertion strictly from his actions.
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I guess using all caps is NOT politically correct >. it is even RUDE or SHOUTING >. oh my goodness
typical libs >. cant discuss the topic would rater criticize the messenger
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dear uncommonsense>>>.if u criticize the gay mayor you are being a bully
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THE LIBS ARE VERY QUIET ON THIS SUBJECT >>.THEY ARE AFRAID OF OFFENDING THE BLACKS OR FACING UP TO THEIR FAILED SOCIAL PROGRAMS
oops all caps >. so very very sorrylet's hope an OPB moderator doesnt express a fear of walking in an all black neighborhood alone at night or they may suffer the same fate as Juan Williams
John in Gervais
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Gang violence.
Well, we have seen it in all ranges from fairly small time Portland gangs, to very big time Mexican drug warlord gangs, and all the way up to the Conservative Republican gang which invaded Iraq.
So. It's a good question. Solve that at any level and you might have a chance at all of the other levels.
Let's bring in that great lawyers question, Cui Bono?, Who Benefits? And how do they benefit? And do they really benefit or do they just think they do, only to regret it later when something enlightens them?
The CIA has a concept called "Blowback" which is about what people do in response to some action and I wonder if gang type people could be educated and informed about Blowback before they go off on some activity that will inevitably bring Blowback upon them? In other words prevention through education and whatever else will steer them, redirect them, on a different course.
An old way is to wait until someone does something wrong and then try to punish them out of doing that behavior any more. Well that is a very ineffective way to do things.
A new way would be to educate them before they get to that point and use positive reinforcement to get them trained in other positive or at least neutral type behaviors. And that has been proven to work.
Education or prison, that is the question.
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Tom d. Ford >. what a wonderful idea >.lets pay them not to get into trouble >. that way everyone can FEEL they are doing something good, no one gets blamed , the budget is increased, and the program will never end.
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Well, vitalpac, yesterday I gave you the benefit of my doubts, eighth grade, but with more evidence, I'm thinking I was wrong, I doubt now that you're even fully in seventh grade. I bet you are being home schooled, aren't you?
Does your mom know you're spamming on TOL and not doing your studies?
Better shape up, the world is passing you by.
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TOM
typical lib .. insulting POS .. keep following your rules for radicals> use personal attacks when you are the wrong side of an issue
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"How do all of these strategies fit into the larger picture of addressing gang violence?"
Unfortunately, all the task forces and sincere well-intentioned strategies are not going to do anything to abate gang violence.
Gangs form to distribute illicit drugs. Drug wars occur because gang organizations do not have the benefit of the law and access to courts to settle disputes. Therefore you get gang wars for turf and distribution rights. People get hurt. The worst of it is these are kids and innocent by standers. To deal with this once and for all you have your choice of two strategies.
1) Either you crack down really hard on USERS. USERS need to go to jail, impose confiscatory fines, you've got to make it too costly to take drugs. I mean get draconian, repressive. If you eliminate the market then the marketers (gangs) and their attendant problems (violence) will be gone. No more Mr. Nice guy social services for the drug marketers. No more slaps on the wrist for USERS.
2) Alternatively, one could completely legalize and regulate currently illicit drugs. Marijuana, cocaine and heroine are cheap to produce. These could be sold legitimately at far lower prices. Gangs would go bankrupt. Disputes would be settled civilly.I'd personally opt for option 2. Besides the elimination of gangs and gang violence, you have the added benefits: Addicts getting their drugs at reasonable prices don't have to commit crimes to feed their habits. More addicts can get treatment and education in medical non-criminal situation. Prison populations can be reduced dramatically. The State could broaden its tax base. You won't have Narco States directly south of the border.
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Marijuana, cocaine and heroine are cheap to produce. These could be sold legitimately at far lower prices. Gangs would go bankrupt. Disputes would be settled civilly.windows 7 key
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heroin - sorry about the typos.
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I still think just paying dem not to break the law is the way to go >. we pay dem for getting grades in school >. same principle>. we could even call it REPARATIONS which would sooth both black igdination and lib white guilt
LOL at disputes settled civiily
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The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.
We know who gang members are that ravage our streets from direct observation and experience. These are not just simply misunderstood alienated youths, like a red headed Richie Cunningham having a bad day.
They are not senior citizens--80% are teenage jueveniles. 95% are under 30 years.
They are not white. Black and Hispanic inmates compose nearly 85% of prison populations. And Hispanics have recently surpassed the black inmate population leading savage prison race riots being fought daily. Yes inmates see race wars as real as the last shank victim.
But together, black and Hispanic, compose of over 90% of gang related inmates.
Sex, Age, Race: these are markers for gang involvement. And though these are stereotypes, there is underlying truth. Mexican narco violence is as real as the severed head dumped on the street like a calling card talisman.
They know race is important, but out of political correctness, we cannot acknowledge simple facts. And our inability to diagnosis the situation correctly , will lead to continued inability to treat the illness. Acknowledge common sense facts and then move beyond it. Individuals congregate in families, tribes all within their race. Are gangs not tribes?
Ignoring the facts do not make them go away.
Now how do we deal with this with a progressive liberal solution?
Example: Why are girls 90% less likely to committ felony crime?Why are teens 90% more likely to commit felonies? Why are blacks and Hispanics more likely to commit felonies? Study the successful kids, not just the pathological. What makes them different? Why are poor Asian kids less likely to commit crime?
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To fix the problems of gang violence our society will have to repair itself. The civil rights movement was a step in the right direction. The peace and love fomented by the hippies was the right direction (not the drugs and dysfunction.)
Gang youth must have stable families, real opportunities to participate in society productively, and so forth. I think Geoffery Canada's cradle-through-college program in Harlem, NY is an example of a comprehensive system designed to eliminate the cycle of intellectual and spiritual poverty.
When I was a youth there was an emphasis on actively recruiting minorities. From high school through college I worked for private and public companies as a civil engineering trainee. Hard work got me in the door and good pay allowed me to pay for college without debt.
During the last 20 years jobs and interviews have been hard to come by. Most potential employers tell you they have selected someone else but they don't tell you why. To be a fly on the wall....
Parents would serve their children well by teaching them to think for themselves; to lead instead of dumbly following the herd or gang.
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In the latino community, the need for culturally appropriate mental health services is key to ending the cycle of violence that is endemic in parts of the community. The disproportionate number latinos incarcerated in parts of the state should be a wake up call that we need some different thinking on how to address the problem. How do we get kids off the street? How do we get parents more involved in their kid's lives? Domestic violence, lack of after school activities and the poverty in these communities leads these kids to join gangs. We need to remove the anger in these families and get them some help on how they can get beyond it. We need to empower the moms and the women in the family to help end the traditional cultural of male domination and machismo.
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Once upon a time in Portland I looked past the Gun to the Young Tough that held it.
It is sad that the picture at the top of the page is of a firearm rather then the true problem that of failed culture. Until the cultures of failure and social dependence are eliminated there will be problems. -
First, my big respect and affection for Rob Ingram. He is simply one solid neighborhood uncle.
Second, continuing on this practical lean, I would suggest parents, teachers, cops, social workers all know that our guys fail their family and school and community expectations at a very predictable time -- that is, when we start looking like idiots in class. At about 13,14, 15 year. No boy can take looking like a dope to the girls.
If you cannot write a good sentence, if you can't do the math, or talk smart about your science homework, why go to class? Better is joining other boys failing.
Of course, this is a complex issue, but here's a simple suggestion: many if not all of our new-Amercan kids, especially rural and refugee camp kids, are not ready for post-modern urban middle or high school. Our schools will fail them, and they will fail their classes. These kids (mostly boys) will populate Portland's next generation of juvenile justice and adult criminal systems.
Why not simply accept that these kids will fail, will join bad kid culture, will not graduate or go to college?
Why not prepare them for good work, for good salaries, for a good family life. Skip our liberal idealism. Without job skills, without a paycheck, as a practical matter, no "good girls" from good families will have a second look at our guys. We cement them into a subculture that gives them the acceptence they need.
Ronault LS (Polo) Catalani, New Portlander Programs, Office of Human Relations.
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I am wondering if either of the young people you have on the show today ever met a "normal" family with two working parents and a home they owned and a car they owned?
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Like for example:
Did they ever get out of bed to someone cooking a low cost breakfast of oatmeal or pancackes from a bagged mix; and then eat breakfast as a family or with at least one other person, at a table, without a TV on; making a plan about how the day was going to go, who was going to be where when, if homework was ready.
And then go to school on the bus and eat lunch at school and come home and do homework before settling in front of the television; and eat again, a low cost meal of soup or hot dish made with mushroom soup and tuna and pasta or a jar of ragu and some pasta you had to cook in hot water for 8 minutes, or basically anything at all ever cooked from ingredients and not just rewarmed in a microwave?
Did they ever do anything outdoors on a weekend day like fish or bike or even take a walk with at least one adult along that wasn't drunk or high? Did they even have a bike as a kid? How about a pet? How about their own bed.
In my opinion it seems that we lose the most kids to just not ever exposing them to a life that could be different. TV and the Movies are never very real but these kids never see what is Normal to have some basis of comparison. They look around and they see themselves as just part of a community that is all losers. Successful families shun them because they are unpredictable and their conduct can catch like a virus and hurt their own children.
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unbelievable >. lets teach gang members marketing skills and management skills so they can deal drugs more profitiably, maybe we should teach them gun safety and marksmanship too >>> u libs are something else
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I think if kids are taken an interest in and shown a different way there is hope to keep them out of gangs. Ive known a few people who were members of gangs out of Southern California that said they were from big families and felt obscure or parents were into drugs more than their kids. They all told me if someone had shown an interest in them things might have been different...the gang was the family they didnt have at home.
Parking them in prison isnt the solution because prison has the gang members that keep the "family" tight.
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And also this. How do those two young people think that other successful not-gang-involved kids were kept out of the gangs. Do they know anybody that didn't get in trouble?
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Crikey, Conservative Republicans gave 800 Billion dollars to "save the bankers" with no requirements at all and we can't spend a mere fraction of that to set up "make work" job programs and and alternatives to gangs to "save" the kids in our communities?
I rather pay someone a minimum wage to do something useful to our community than pay those horrendous costs of housing them in prisons or clamping expensive GPS units on their legs and pay some officer to watch the computer screen to see where they go. How about those old time wheeled barrels and brooms to sweep the bicycle lanes of broken bottles? Pull out ivy from local park trees, pull weeds, etc
Prevention, prevention, prevention.
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PREVENTION >>> lets pay them not to have kids they cant support .. end the cycle >. it may cost democrats a few votes and alot of government jobs so i'm sure you oppose it >...... PREVENTION
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TOM >. im sure you are a well intentioned do gooder and giving them all public sevice jobs certainly would make everyone feel good >..but they make hundreds a day being criminals .. they dont want to pick up trash for minimum wage>. i think we should teach all the gang members to be doctors and lawyers and social workers
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On this page, there is a bit of ‘pointing out’ how gangs are made up of 'blacks' and 'Hispanics,' and how once we all realize this key statistic everything will be peachy-creamy. Gosh, you know, I did realize that was a factor. Not sure where that leads to. Are we to think that 'blacks' and 'Hispanics' are inherently defective? Is there hope for them? Is it cultural? Is it economic? I can’t help but think the motivation for pointing this out, isn’t meant to be useful and isn’t leading to a solution. There are many thugs, in many places, and in several parts of the world those thugs happen to be 'whites.' It could be useful to understand the ethnic makeup of a group, but what is not useful is to suggest that this makeup speaks about an entire ethnicity at large, or that a race is broken, and churns out criminals at birth. There is a whole lot of chicken or egg in the world, and it is hard, or nearly impossible, to comprehend.
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SCOTTMIL
GOOGLE RICHARD LYNN
OR GOOGLE .. RACIAL DIFFERENCES/INTELLIGENCE
i think to ignore that ethnicity/race is a factor is burying one's head in the sand >. is it hurtful? maybe > truth/facts sometimes hurt .. is it politically incorrect? >. ABSOLUTELY
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Scottmil:
John from Gervais exposes himself in the way he posts, as a White Supremacist, low intelligence and shallow thinking, just repeating what his hate and fear-mongering leaders tell him.
Conservative Republicanism brings out these extremist fringe types from the shadows.
I got a lot of experience with them on the old TOTN community forums.
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Scott: Wake up and smell the Cappachino! ;)
Race may not be important to you...but it is important to others and the rest of the world and THEREFORE is important. If some races are predisposed to diabetes, we must pay attention to race, because it could yield a valuable clue to a diagnosis. And we can attempt early interventions of weight loss, diet and lifestyle changes by counseling to prevent florrid Diabetes Melitus.
We must understand the cause of violence if we are to cure or prevent it. Some point to the high prevalence of single parent black households, leading to poverty and lack of paternal guidance and therefore more juevenile deliquence. However there is high crime prevalence in Hispanic culture too, but they have intact nuclear families, religion and extended families. So single family parents may or may not be the key. Or there are a multitude of other factors or interplay among many factors that we have not fathomed.
Why is 'Dissing' so mortal in black culture that a victim ends up with a bullet in the medulla oblongata?
Why are female crime rates 10 times less than males? This is valuable information, as a father of a daughter. We can take more precautions with our daughters and perhaps raise them with self defense skills. Or choose to be extra careful with moral education and teaching non-violence and conflict resolution to our sons.
.... these questions must be asked, rather than plunge ahead in the dark with a blindfold. IT is not Blameology, but rational policy. It is using SCIENCE. Violence and Crime as not just a random Saturday Night Special, but as a Disease. And a Disease that can be intervened and cured.
If you are Progressive and Rational, then Knowledge is the key...Not Political Correctness and Denial.
Yep, Denial is not just a River in Egypt.
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@John
Hurtful? Yes. But more instructive, it is self-serving, (in the "one up -one down" social dynamic). It is bullying if you are in an advantageous possition, and it is sad, if you are coming from a low status possition yourself.
Generalizing groups of people is the first clue to tribal/self-serving behavior. The few cases where it is not, it is a clue that someone is a lazy or an overwhelmed 'researcher'. Take your pick.
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Jacob,
It should be fairly clear, that ‘political correctness,’ whatever that means, is not something I concern myself with. Well of course it isn’t, because the only ‘correctness’ I am concerned with is the kind that is true. Which is exactly the problem with your post, and others---they just aren’t correct to begin with---so there would be know need to even get to the political correctness of them if I were so inclined.
I thought it would also be clear to most people (I realize you are not 'most people,' but I thought I would give you the credit) that there is a huge leap between genetic predisposition to disease by certain ethnicities, versus proposing that gangs exist because blacks and Hispanics are allegedly predisposed to enjoy the camaraderie of organized violence. The problem with your proposition is that you have presented it as means of causation which you have absolutely no evidence of---you can’t link it up.
You might know that blacks and Hispanics make up the majority of gang members in certain places, but you do not know that they are gang members because there is something inherent among blacks and Hispanics that leads to this behaviour. It could be these minorities have been oppressed or feel marginalized, have poor economic conditions, have a culture that is more prone to violence---it could be all sorts of things, that yes, might happen to be specific to those cultures, and when combined with the circumstances people find themselves in, leads to gang activity. But, based on your language you are going beyond drawing these potential observations, you are prosing an egg that is already rotten before it hatches.
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John from Gervais wants to blame this on race.
But we can look back through american history and see that it has been mostly white people in gangs, Irish, Italians, Jews, etc.
And the other "races", the Chinese with their "Black Hand" and I'd bet on some Japanese gang existing, as well as Vietnamese in Seattle.
This is not about race, it is something else.
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TOM
It is about race and is about coddling, and its about political correctness that just perpetuates the problem. TIME TO CALL A SPADE A SPADE >..cant make a silk purse out of a sow's ear >.no matter how much other people's tax money u spend on them
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@John & Jacob
Considering your positions, if you were loan officers at a bank and a black farmer came in for a loan, would you treat them differently than a white farmer?
And if you wouldn't, how long do you think it would take the average loan officer that is not as mature as you to start using race as a way to put down someone that dosen't look like them?
No, there are good reasons for not giving license to peoples most selfish social impulses, i.e., putting other people down. I have no problem defending this basic goal of 'political correctness'. It is aimed at the bullies, and it is the bullies that scream the loudest.
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I'd like to thank everyone who commented today. As Emily mentioned at the end of the show, we didn't get to very many of your comments. I'd also like to point out our commenting guidelines for newcomers who may not have had a chance to read them. We very much value the diversity of views expressed and — as you'll see if you read them — they are designed to facilitate the exchange of ideas and experiences. Snide or snarky comments and name calling (either directed at other commenters or the TOL staff) does not do this. I believe this is rare in general on our site — let's keep it that way!
And again, thanks to all the listeners who take the time to leave thoughtful comments to create engaging dialogue — you rock!
Allison Frost, TOL Senior Producer
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IN OTHER WORDS .,. KEEP IT POLITICALLY CORRECT PEOPLE!!!
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Sorry, Vitalpac, I think this note from Allison is aimed at you primarily, since the rest of us have been around here for a while.
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DUH PENNY >>. DONT TAZE ME BRO
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I have trained as a scientist. And we see correlations as valuable leads to hypothesis that subsequently must be proven true or false. When you have a 90% correlation, it is easier to prove causation though there are no gurantees. But it is also valuable to use such high probable events as base assumptions even if we cannot explain them.
Gang members are far more likely to be young jueveniles under 30 yo. That means we do not have to spend police time questioning the elderly and nursing homes about recent grafitti found on the freeway overpass. Simple common sense that has real implications.
Girls are less than 10% of all gang members. That means we can spend the majority time and resources intervening with the BOYS, reaching out at skate board parks, video arcades, boy's physical education, and even boys rest rooms and locker rooms. We waste time interviewing the women at a nail salon reguarding a recent shooting homicide of a Crip.
And if blacks and Latinos are 90% of all gang members, and they regularly war with each other on the street like a deadly West Side Story, then we must address race if we are to deal to gangs.
Political correct says we should treat all races equally...but this wastes valuable police resources. And it wastes black lives because they are the most common victims.
If a transcontinental American commercial flight blows up in mid air killing hundreds and plastique explosive residuals are found in the cabin: Who would you blame? If we were PC, then FBI investigators start alphabetically in ALL the organizations active in America. Start with the the AAA, the Auto CLub of America and work your way down to the Zoo Society. And start fresh with each investigation.
In truth, common sense says a particular subgroup or ethnic group with a particular religion and language from a certain part of the world will be assumed linked. A 5th grader can connect the dots. And the assumption in our time will bear out. But it is racist.
But common sense can be racially based. To do otherwise is brainless. Police work is based on Common Sense. Some one running from a scene of crime is assumed a suspect, not a trainee for the PDX marathon.
I have had the unique experience of working inside a prison. You have no idea how prison demographics are different from the outside. And inmates self seggregate and have deep racial bias that are seconds away from violence. Prison guards sort prisoners based on race--and it is racist. But the alternative is knife fights, injury and death. We have to be practical and deal with reality, not live in denial.
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JACOB
thanks for the drawn out verbose explainations .,. libs take that for intellect .. but u could have just said >. LETS CALL A SPADE A SPADE
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John from Gervais!
Calling black people a "SPADE" is a horribly rascist term from the 1950s and early 1960s. Please stop!
Hmm, obviously the world has "Left You Behind".
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@John & Jacob
Repeating my questions that niether one of you answered:
Considering your positions, if you were loan officers at a bank and a black farmer came in for a loan, would you treat them differently than a white farmer?
And if you wouldn't, how long do you think it would take the average loan officer that is not as mature as you to start using race as a way to put down someone that dosen't look like them?
No, there are good reasons for not giving license to peoples most selfish social impulses, i.e., putting other people down. I have no problem defending this basic goal of 'political correctness'. It is aimed at the bullies, and it is the bullies that scream the loudest.
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First I want to say thanks to all who tuned in, listened online, and have commented. For the most part, your comments are fair and honest. And most of you are right on. Had the show been longer, I/ we probably would have mentioned most of the ideas shared prior. Special thanks to Ronault Catalani and trurl9! I think trurl9 is closest to THE answers, but keep in mind it will take many answers to many questions, many people working on all of the issues and a commitment by our decision makers and check writers to fix this problem.
Gangs are representations of unhealthy communitieis. It is the subsection of those who've been disconnected announcing their disconnection. It is a way to SEE that our communities are sick, otherwise we might think they are healthy. And know that the WHOLE community is sick, not just the Blacks, or Hispanics, or Asians, or poor, or ignorant, or whatever we might be inclined to identify as different than us AND the problem. When will we move past mass-alienation?
Nations and empires that have done well have always understood that it is imperative to take care of the young, for they WILL be the old and in charge.
Thanks!
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And thanks to you, Rob Ingram, it was an honor to have you and our other guests on the show. I only wish we could have had another hour (at least)!
Allison Frost, Senior Producer, Think Out Loud
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I think they are doing their part to curb this menace and bring safety to an area.
http://www.incarparts.com/
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Comments are now closed.
BY GANG VIOLENCE WE ARE SPEAKING FOR THE MOST PART ABOUT BLACK CRIMINALS IN PORTLAND. THE LIBERAL POLITICALLY CORRECT MINDSET KNOW THIS BUT CANT SAY IT .. INSTEAD THEY WANT TO PLACE THE BLAME ON PEOPLE WHO GET THEIR GUNS STOLEN .. LAWD HAVE MERCY
I THINK ANKLE BRACELETS AND LONG LONG PROBATION (WITH DRUG TESTS) HOUSE ARREST AND EVEN PRISON TIME IS THE ANSWER>>> TAKE THEM OUT OF CIRCULATION UNTIL THEY MANAGE TO BE ABLE TO MANAGE THEMSELVES >>.SORRY BUT CODDLING CRIMINALS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE OF A CERTAIN RACE JUST GETS PEOPLE KILLED
JOHN IN GERVAIS