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ARCTIC BLAST 2008!!!!

AIR DATE: Friday, December 19th 2008

POSTED BY: SCOTT SILVER

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Should we be spending more on snow plows and de-icer to keep the state running during the occasional snowfall? Or is it foolish to budget for a weather event that occurs only rarely in many parts of the state?

On our December Suggest-A-Show page we got a winter weather rant from commenter Gerald Scoones:

"I grew up in Buffalo N.Y. where it took a foot of snow to close schools, and that only lasted a day. Snowplows, snow throwers, and sanding trucks get to work as soon as there is meaningful snow to remove and by the time it stops snowing all major streets and arterials are refilled with cars... Compare this to Portland where any snow that sticks is treated as a local disaster. And where are the road crews when a little snow hits Oregon? To most of us coming from snowy parts of the country, this is the crux of the problem. Our government seems paralyzed to fight back against the slightest challenge from Mother Nature. For lack of a few sanding trucks we are treated by the media to watching helpless drivers (inexperienced in snow) slide to the curb, spin their tires at full speed (the worst response to lack of traction), and creating hazards by abandoning their vehicles."

He continues:

"If we consider the economic costs of companies closing down, of stores losing shoppers during their fight for survival, of parents missing work to care for kids at home, and damage claims from fender benders we have to ask ? Is this really necessary? Surely, the lost tax revenue could pay for a little well-placed sand from our nearby shores. And our highway department could contract local companies as backups to their own efforts. It?s about time our local governments take responsibility for keeping our roads drivable during minor weather setbacks."

How does Oregon stack up when it comes to dealing with inclement weather?

Should we be spending more on snow plows and de-icer to keep the state running during the occasional snowfall? Or is it foolish to budget for a weather event that occurs only rarely in many parts of the state?

First off, this sort of weather is fairly unusual here. Happens to this extent every five years or so (but adding in what's coming on Saturday/Sunday, and maybe it's a 20 year event?). Usually, in an average winter we get 2 or 3 days where you don't want to drive. So it's really not worth it for the city/state to invest in the kind of snow removal infrastructure that Buffalo NY has. As far as missing work and our shopping "duties" - well, that's not always such a bad thing. It's a good excuse to slow down and realize that we don't have nature completely tamed. A good excuse for actual contemplation, maybe? I mean, how often in this modern world do we get time for that?

There are those from the MidWest who complain that everything shuts down in Portland when we get an inch of snow. Yes, this is generally the case, but they must realize that we have things the MidWest doesn't: Hills and curves. It's not flat here, thank goodness. But that also means that, yes, an inch of snow can be treacherous. My advice: don't drive in it unless you absolutely have to. Telecommute if you can. Call in sick if they don't give you the option. This is just Nature's way of saying that you're not fully in control of everything and that commerce and work can sometimes wait. Take a deep breath, watch the falling snowflakes and have a rest.

skeptictank — Thu Dec. 18th 10:34p.m.

Yes! I like this reply; I agree that this weather IS unusual here, and it is not worth the environmental impact and city resources to beef up the sand and de-ice use for a handful of days of inclement weather. Take it for what it is (stated by "skeptictank"), "Nature's way of saying that you're not fuly in control", and enjoy the experience. Changing your routine is refreshing, isn't it? Especially when you know it's short term!

mdennis — Fri Dec. 19th 12:07p.m.

I can't agree more with the sentiments expressed in the above two posts. This is not Boston, Buffalo, Philadelphia, Chicago, etc... If you want the fast-paced always going lifestyle then move back there. If you want to be impervious to weather and seasonal changes then move to Southern Cali where the sun shines year round.

oregonbeliever — Fri Dec. 19th 12:44p.m.

When commenting about how other places on the East Coast and the Midwest do not use chains that may be true but they do not have the same geography as we do over here in Oregon. With elevation changes where in one part of the city it is 32 degrees and when I drive up to the top of Burnside and it's 5 degrees cooler and many feet higher it is hard to solve the problems for our city which has many different elevations. Oregon is not flat like NJ and the Midwest, we have mountains not hills.

jvandub — Fri Dec. 19th 12:46p.m.

And to the bosses out there: Come on, cut your employees some slack. Unless you're running a Hospital, your business is probably not so important that you want your employees to risk life & limb to get to work.

skeptictank — Thu Dec. 18th 10:57p.m.

I've lived in two snowy places, North Idaho, where I grew up, and New England, where I lived for 10 years. When it snowed in Idaho, we would put on chains if we had to go somewhere, admire the beauty or go sledding if we didn't, and the snowplows and gravel trucks would come by eventually. Snow driving was taught in drivers' ed, and most people took winter driving in stride. In New England, as in Buffalo, the army of snowplows and salting and sanding trucks was out almost before the first flakes fell. The salt rusted out our cars and had to be leached out of flower beds in the spring. The sand was spewed everywhere, creating an ugly tan cityscape and getting tracked into our homes and anywhere else we went. People rushed around frantically, trying to avoid any change in their daily routines. Many had absolutely no sense of the natural beauty of the winter weather ? and in fact it wasn't very pretty once the sanders got to work.

It's probably too much to expect folks on this side of the Cascades to become better (and less hurried) snow drivers. But the last thing Portland needs ? well, there are probably a lot of last things that Portland needs, but one of the last things is to adopt Northeasterners' approach to dealing with the weather. I'm basically OK with the way things are, although a few more snowplows on the freeways and arterials might be nice. And maybe a little more gravel, but no sand and no salt.

jonaday — Fri Dec. 19th 5:19a.m.

Not everyone can afford to lose their wages.

I am originally from Connecticut and am part amused and part mystified at the persistent unpreparedness of Oregon for even a small amount of snow.

And this is not a once in a 20 year event. I have lived here for eight years and have seen this happen over and over and over.

The solution is very simple. My brother still lives in Connecticut, and he makes a little money on the side by placing a modified snowplow blade on his pickup truck and plowing the secondary roads of his town when the local Dept. of Transportation is overwhelmed. It is just a matter of getting the jump on the snow before it can be packed down by traffic and icing up.

This is a very cost effective solution. The more people who make it to work because the roads are plowed, the more payroll tax the state gets.

Luke T. — Fri Dec. 19th 10:40a.m.

Ack! I hate the gravel. Once the snow is gone, the gravel remains. And there are a lot of idiot drivers who wander all over the road and into the emergency lane, or whatever, and kick up the gravel into other people's windshields, completely oblivious to the damage they are doing. Cell phone use during driving exacerbates their wandering around.

Luke T. — Fri Dec. 19th 10:44a.m.

Local TV is hilarious when this happens. Every year we get to see who drew the short straws and has to stand on an overpass somewhere kicking at the ice and trying to think of something to say to fill the time. These stations put so much time and energy into launching their "storm teams" that they can't pull them back when it turns into a non-event like Wednesday.
And so far as the resources are concerned, most of the money would be better spent teaching local people how to drive in snow.

John in Salem — Fri Dec. 19th 11:37a.m.

As a lifelong Portlander, any occasion of winter weather like this leaves me rolling my eyes both at those who just shut down and refuse to cope at all, at those who insist on driving up slopes with no chains and spin tires in a vain attempt at traction, but also at all those transplants from other states that have a lot more of this sort of weather who like to put forth the superiority of the winter driving scene in that place they are from compared to how it is here.

Snow lasting more than about a day or two is rare around here, and so dumping loads of money into additional plows, trucks, and road-clearing equipment is not a wise investment. At the same time, a little common sense goes a long way. I left early this morning in my two-wheel drive car and got to work just fine. I carried my tire chains, a scoop shovel, and a tarp to kneel upon in case I should have to put the chains on in the back of the car. Earlier this week, I made it around town just fine on Tri-Met's chain-equipped buses. This isn't that hard folks.

Still, because my children's school was once again closed, I will be spending a fair amount of the day telecommuting, and option I have now that I didn't have in some of my previous jobs.

adamrobins — Fri Dec. 19th 11:45a.m.

The question isn't really how Oregon stacks up; it's how Portland and the Willamette Valley deal with snow and ice. Transportation agencies and citizens living in the 'normal' snow zone in the Cascades as well as east of the Cascades handle snow and ice with the same aplomb as those who live in other parts of the country. It is generally only Portland and the Willamette Valley that seemingly become paralyzed with relatively small amounts of snow or freezing rain. However, in the 30 years I've lived in Oregon (including 12 in the Portland and Eugene areas), snowfall and freezing rain events in the Willamette Valley and Metro area have been relatively rare. That doesn't mean they might not occur every year or every other year; by rare I mean that there may only be one such event a winter and its effects persist for only a day or two.

Snow plow blades and sanding equipment are expensive items to buy for what may only be a few days of use every year, and that doesn't include the number of trucks needed beyond the normal needs of a transportation agency to mount them on for major snow removal operations. While local contractors with the right kind of trucks could be contracted to assist in operations, somebody still has to pay for all that extra expense to make roads passable so some semblance of normal life can continue for those few brief inclement days through the whole winter.

Dare a wild-eyed liberal like me say it, but there is an element of personal responsibility involved in this issue. Buy snow tires. Buy chains. Tell your friends to buy them. Insist that the school districts install automatic chains systems on their school buses or hire a temporary workforce to install conventional chains on their school buses. East of the Cascades, including here in Southcentral Oregon where we received about a foot of new snow yesterday, it is not solely the responsibility of state, county, and municipal road departments to make sure you can go where you want to when you want to. Why should it be solely their responsibility when the Portland Metro area gets a couple of inches of snow?

Ken Kittrell — Fri Dec. 19th 12:03p.m.

Montana kid, lived in Salem, seen valley drivers, have lived in Redmond (OR) 27 years (where we don't drive like valley drivers).

Rants:

Studs are way oversold. A State Trooper once told me they're good maybe 5 or 10% of the time, during which, if you drove slowly, you'd be fine. Tell me those little tiny pieces of metal in ice are going to keep your ton and a half car going where you point it, and I'll consider them.


I have Accuweather on my computer they they post a SEVERE WEATHER ALERT if, say, the thermometer is going to drop 10 degrees in the winter. This is folly. Maybe it's a SEASONAL WEATHER ALERT. Then when there's something truly requiring our attention, like hail or a stout windstorm, get our attention with the word SEVERE.

On the plus side:

It is my observation that this year the City of Redmond has done less plowing and spread fewer cinders with this snow, and the results are better. Too much cinders equals ball bearings as you approach a stop sign--a smaller amount can help traction.

The snow was here first. Let's learn to cope with it, not try to beat it into submission. Mother Nature tends to disdain that attitude.

leebarker — Fri Dec. 19th 12:09p.m.

Well, as a trucker who has seen most states and all but a few major metros during winter driving conditions, I can say that Portland is far from either the worst or the best.

We do have hills, but so do a lot of places. What we don't have is enough dependable winter weather to help local drivers learn proper skills for handling it; couple that with I-5 corridor drivers (both pros and passenger vehicles) who also have no real expectation of need to learn and you have a real mess. If you want worst, look at DFW metro in/after an ice storm... or Chicago/Gary... or anything that links to the George Washington Bridge with even an inch.

The biggest problem is that ice driving is not taught nationwide. Don't tell me that ice never happens, look at the Atlanta loops when the rare arctic blast reaches them (drivers used to invincibly driving 75 to 80 meeting conditions that don't allow it... in my experience, that defines ugly). Even Louisiana just had a bout of icy weather. If the school districts can't afford it, the state DOT's should make at least a small fleet of skid cars (ones that elevate the tires off the road to simulate total loss of control that wet ice and glazed/polished packed snow can produce) available to driver training classes (including community ones at say community colleges for the older folks).

Hmmmm, guess I could get up on a soapbox here, but the point is that there are two classes of drivers that impact winter driving most: the ?invincibles? and the ?paranoids? (my classifications). The former are often the ones you see in the medians because they were driving in the far left lane WAY too fast for the conditions (4wd drivers are especially susceptible to acting invincible). They play the odds and forget that the circumstances change in less distance than they can respond to at their speed... more trucks jack-knife on ice because invincible four-wheelers cut them off (hmmm... I better not start, or I'll get off topic REALLY fast). OK, the flip side are the paranoids who feel their tires break free once when they pull out of the driveway and spend the rest of the day at 10mph (gross oversimplification, but you get the point). They poke along on roads that can handle more and increase the likelihood that even normally sane drivers will do stupid things to get around them.

Yes, I could go on, but without killing the thread with a boat-load of details, I think what we need here is to try to find a way to instill "realistic confidence" in the majority of drivers. It is what most folks from places that have winter weather have by the regular reminder of the changing seasons (see Montana, Wisconsin and Minnesota for good examples).

tpohara — Fri Dec. 19th 12:10p.m.

Pat: Welcome back! It's been a while.

David Miller — Fri Dec. 19th 12:14p.m.

Thanks Dave. I hope you are well and looking forward to a great holiday season. Merry Christmas, Sir.

tpohara — Fri Dec. 19th 12:21p.m.

I grew up in England where it snowed frequently during the winter. School was cancelled once that I remember. My parents would have been fired if they had not shown up for work. I've lived here in Porltand 13 years and this weather is not unusual. Today school was cancelled again for no reason - that's 3 days wasted this week and we are told our school will not make up the days. On Wednesday night I walked to our public library with my kids to get a movie, only to find it had closed three hours early. It was 37 degrees and raining. Please - STOP THE MADNESS!

portlandjane — Fri Dec. 19th 12:19p.m.

The school closures have more to do with budget cuts than the snow unfortunately. If snow days don't happen they take days off the end of the year.

jvandub — Fri Dec. 19th 12:51p.m.

This is not about the weather...but about the cabinet and sub-cabinet appointments. I know many are disappointed that that there are not Pacific NW appointments at the cabinet level...and many, like me, are disappointed in the rather centrist appointments for Interior and Agriculture, the news of Jane Lubchenco's appointment to NOAA and the additional news of a like minded future-focused Harvard scientist John Holdren (also like Lubchenco, a former president of the AAAS) to the role of Chief Science Advisor in the Obama White House, combined with the appointment of Steven Chu at Energy makes for a solid science team ready to take the Obama administration, and the nation, bravely into the realm of taking cutting edge science seriously (unlike the current White House) and truly grappling with Global Warming/Climate Change.

PS It would be wise for TOL to devote an entire program to this topic.

osprey2008 — Fri Dec. 19th 12:20p.m.

I absolutely love this weather. Especially the drivers.
I am a Native Oregonian, (Portland) I took the time to learn how to drive in Snow and Ice. It is not that difficult to be prepared. Unfortunately enough people don't take time to learn or are in too much of a hurry. Over the past 45 years the drivers in the Portland area have gotten worse. Funny how it matches up with the numbers of people moving here. Rarely do you hear natives complaining about the weather, just about the drivers.

DC2008 — Fri Dec. 19th 12:21p.m.

I agree with Lucy Moore: there's an element of personal responsibility here. I'm a native Oregonian, but I lived in Vermont for years, and there's really no reason whatsoever that this kind of weather should prevent Oregon from functioning. Snow tires/studs on your car, go a little slower, and you'll be fine. A bit more sanding and salting from the State would be useful, but at least in the Portland area I see no reason to increase public expenditure on such things as snow-plows -- we just don't get enough snow!

Kleand — Fri Dec. 19th 12:28p.m.

My environmentally wonderful car apparently does not like ice. Fred Meyer was out of chains. So I am grateful for the streetcar. and the Max and the tram.

Tamsin — Fri Dec. 19th 12:35p.m.

I just moved here from New Jersey and this craziness over a dusting of snow and the insistence on snow chains cracks me up. I assume that the driver's Ed classes here don't teach people how to drive in snow?

When I told me friends back east about this "snow dust" panic, they laughed. They then told me that for all the bragging I did about the Oregon not having any sales tax, that maybe a a sales tax to go out and buy portland a snow plow or two might be helpful!

betterwearahat — Fri Dec. 19th 12:31p.m.

I am a transplant from Ohio, so this weather is very normal to me. The roads are treacherous, there is no question. However, I am appalled at the drivers in the Portland area doing two things that are big no-nos in snow: 1) driving too close to the car in front of them and 2) hitting the gas hard when trying to accelerate from a dead stop.

I agree that better education on "how" to drive during bad weather would prevent the local economy from having to avoid using salt (which tears up roads and is corrosive to cars) and buying expensive plows and equipment that wouldn't be necessary in an environment such as Portland.

Overall, I think just a certain degree of caution is the best investment that our local community can make.

KrazyEmu110 — Fri Dec. 19th 12:38p.m.

Never been to Jersey, but I'm thinking it's pretty flat there. Do you have anything like our West Hills there? Would you be willing to drive from Sylvan Hill down Burnside into Portland on an icy/snowy day? Even 26 from Sylvan on down is pretty steep.

skeptictank — Fri Dec. 19th 12:41p.m.

I spent several winters in Pittsburgh which had much more significant hills than Portland and had more frequent snow and drove frequently in worse conditions. I agree with KrazyEmu110 that education about how to drive in snow makes a major difference. In addition to the two pet bad habits of that poster, I would add: 3) drivers who start to hydroplane and jerk the steering wheel; and 4) drivers who no longer see pedestrians and pedestrian crossings - did they become invisible?

hazeladd — Fri Dec. 19th 12:49p.m.

Gresham closed their schools on Wednesday when all the roads were bare pavement. It made no sense. And then to make things even dumber, they announced the schools were open on Thursday in the middle of a snowstorm with packed snow on the roads. So two hours after my kids got to school, the school was calling us to tell us to come get them because they were closing.

It is this kind of idiocy that is particularly annoying.

Luke T. — Fri Dec. 19th 12:33p.m.

Growing up in suburban Syracuse, we knew that if it started snowing before, say, 8 pm that road crews would have things cleared by morning and off to school we'd go.

When I moved to Oregon about 5 years ago I marveled at how rust free the cars were, while my loyal buggy wore its rust badges of courage earned through many battles with Central NY road salt.

Maybe an anthropologist can study how over the generations Portlanders have gone from brave pioneers in covered wagons to scaredy cats in slippy-slidy Subarus.

Like John from Salem, I've had enough of non-event, on location news crews. But luckily BBC is on OPB at 6 pm so, thanks to the alarmist local news, I'm much more aware of world events. Or at least former British colonial news events.

Stay warm.

KJSPDX114 — Fri Dec. 19th 12:33p.m.

Please accept my personal invitation to jump in a covered wagon and head on back to Syracuse.... suburban Syracuse.

oregonbeliever — Fri Dec. 19th 1:01p.m.

It just so happens that I'm from suburban Syracuse, too. I have no plans to leave -- who'd want to leave this Eden? -- but if I ever do we can take the wagon together.

David Miller — Fri Dec. 19th 1:25p.m.

I agree with the statement below. The folks usually doing the most complaining are not from Oregon. They are usually from the east or midwest. I consider it rather charming and provincial that Portland shuts down in the rare case of snow. Children play with each other at community sites such as sledding hills and neighbors come out of their houses to connect once again when snowy weather like this does happen. Portland is a small town after all. The one issue that bothers me is the media becomes completely obsessed with the issue. Is there nothing else happening in the world? Do we really need to focus on the weather happening on our street?

mcbarron — Fri Dec. 19th 12:34p.m.

We know there are problems with sanding and salting and we also know that snow plows and shovels can't get everywhere in a timely manner. Why not consider what Intel does at many of their facilities: they put electric heat in the sidewalks that melts the ice. Why couldn't we consider this for certain freeway onramps that become completely impassible with even just a small amount of snow or ice?

skeptictank — Fri Dec. 19th 12:34p.m.

I lived in the mid-west for 50 years before moving to Portland. During my first snowstorm here, I was shocked that the city basically closed down for a storm that was minimal by mid-west blizzard standards.

After a couple of years, I have grown to like the Oregon reaction. Very few people are so critical that their job will shut down the ecomony if they are absent for a few days. Many critical jobs can be done by telecommuting. If kids have to go to school a couple of days longer in the summer, is that so critical?

Portlanders in general do not know how to drive in snow and ice and should stay off the roads. Making the roads clear enough for all drivers would be tremendously cost prohibitive.

coaster — Fri Dec. 19th 12:35p.m.

Between 1967 and 1975, I also lived 50 years in the corn desert. In a certain city I will not name, every winter was the same combination of Ice Capades and Destruction Derby, as Sioux City drivers were discombobulated by snow even after a hundred years of motoring in the stuff all winter long. I recall my high school staying open in blizzard conditions because the school superintendent went outside his house and slipped on the ice. Two feet of snow and zero temperatures did not stop me from learning about Silas Marner or how our armed forces were prevailing in Vietnam.

Portland can be proud of itself for coping with this temporary interruption of our usual pleasant monsoon.

jefftaylor — Sun Dec. 21st 1:03a.m.

Also, the news organizations don't help much: I realize we're weather obsessed around here, but hours of continuous coverage seems both sensationalistic and melodramatic. And a bit tedious: honestly, it's hardly news to send teams to a place where there's some weather in order to confirm that there's some weather, and then cut to another team confirming that, indeed, there is weather. And then to another team, reporting from a place where there's not weather yet but might be later. C'mon folks, it's not a story. Anywhere else in the world, this wouldn't get a mention.

Kleand — Fri Dec. 19th 12:35p.m.

As a native Oregonian I can say that one of the reasons that people with experience here tend to be super cautious is because this kind of cold/thaw "IS" unusual. What is more expected is freezing rain, black ice and most dangerous, ice with water on the surface. When that happens, snow equipment and sand are useless.

katied — Fri Dec. 19th 12:37p.m.

snow happens, deal with it.

admittedly it is tough on parents who use the public schools for day care, but another social program for 'snow' is not necessary to hold the hands of Portlanders.

Granted there is a lot the city, county, and state could do to improve their response, even to such drastic measures as dropping their plows to the street and moving snow rather than driving around with the plows up. Obviously a business strategist would create budgets and procedures to deal with this, but this is not something within the realm of OR politics / government.

The rest of us just have to 'deal with it'. (and gladly pay our taxes).

Many areas in the world with high snow probability privatize major parts of snow removal, since contractors are often out of work during this time. Privatizing services is not very probable in a blue state, for fear of someone making a profit. Its much better to build a huge government infrastructure with many assets and managers sitting around waiting to offer a weasel solution. (maybe OR could use is future CARB staff on the few days it may snow)

jwswamp — Fri Dec. 19th 12:38p.m.

I grew up in the snow belt in Ohio but I do not think any of the snow we get here can compare to the east. There are so many different factors. For example, we do not use salt on the road, making icy conditions very dangerous. Also, the type of snow and fluctuations of temperatures is vastly different.

I do get tired of east coaster saying they can't believe things get shut down. There are not these types of hills on the east and I don't ever recall the ice storms like Oregon gets. Where I grew up (not as much now), there was constant snow and freezing temperatures. With constant freezing temperatures and not the ups and downs as here, it makes for very different conditions.

I'm glad Oregonians are cautious and salt is not used. I love this weather and enjoy having my work all messed up every now and then. It really makes us remember that we are in the NW and weather still happens! Enjoy it!

CJ Webb — Fri Dec. 19th 12:38p.m.

I get tired of folks like this who don't realize that there are 'these types of hills' back East. Do you not realize there are mountains there? That there's all kinds of geological features in the very large area that constitutes the East Coast? Or are you defining 'Back East' as a single flat area you're familiar with?

Unless you define 'these types of hills' as having to be in the west side of Portland, you'll find 'em in many other places.

hazeladd — Fri Dec. 19th 12:57p.m.

I actually get sick of east coasters here complaining. This is Oregon and the hills are very different. Of course, I cannot speak to the entire east coast. Put salt on anything and it makes it easier! I do think those east coasters should go back and let us relax, miss some work and enjoy winter our way.

CJ Webb — Fri Dec. 19th 1:06p.m.

Pull your head in, mate... I never said the answer was to salt the roads. I merely challenged your suggestion that there aren't significant hills back east. Really, they're out there. There are 14 states on the east coast. There are even a couple of mountain ranges. There are areas with steeper grades, with twistier roads, often narrower roads.

I also think the relative infrequency of these types of events makes it difficult to justify a massive investment required for an the type of response a city in the North East or Midwest would offer.

hazeladd — Fri Dec. 19th 1:16p.m.

Salt: Rusts out vehicles, damages already poor water quality, is nasty in the soil as well.

If you want your roads salted, please move to some part of the country where they salt the roads, stop trying to make Oregon just like the place you left!!

DC2008 — Fri Dec. 19th 12:38p.m.

I teach music at Banks Elementary School--or I would be teaching it, if we hadn't just lost an entire week to snow. The result: two canceled concerts (one of them a choir trip to the Grotto), an awful lot of time spent twiddling my thumbs, and the sinking realization that I'll be paying for this extra time off with more time tacked onto the end of the school year in June. It's been fun skiing around town in Forest Grove, but I'd rather have more vacation time in the summer than the winter--not to mention how hard it'll be to get my students on task in January after a full three weeks off!

Mark Anderson — Fri Dec. 19th 12:39p.m.

I've been living in Portland for ten years now after moving here from Chicago and before that New York.

I think Portland and Oregon governments should start getting used to the fact that snow in winter is getting to be the norm here (there have been quite a few snow/ice storms that have occurred since I've been here, shutting down the city for days at a time). Because of this, more money should be allocated for snow plows, de-icers, salting etc.

The caller from New Jersey was completely correct, chains are really not used in most places except for the mountains. I think chains rip up the roads way more than salt. Bring on the salt and snow plows!

Also, how about DMV giving lessons on how to drive in snow? There are so many people here who just don't know how to drive in these conditions. The roads would be safer if they knew how.

JackieW1 — Fri Dec. 19th 12:41p.m.

First ... NO... NO NO NO NO ... DO NOT SALT THE ROADS....

I spent a lot of money on my car. It costs a lot to maintain. I do not want a rusted out hulk like those you see from areas where they do salt.

And you smug jerks from the east coast... get your butts back there, and leave this beautiful state to us natives. Take your salt idiocy with you. The city hasn't been "shut down". They've closed the schools a little more than usual, but it's because of idiots like those calling who are always second guessing the school officials that has caused this paranoia on their part; damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I'm sick of this smug crap though. This happens so rarely that it simply doesn't make sense to invest in the equipment, only to have it sit idle four out of five years. We're already in enough trouble. Invest in schools and parks and other things. Let it snow. If you can't drive in it. Stay home. If you are from the east coast, take your smug b.s. back there and leave us alone.

porsadgai — Fri Dec. 19th 12:42p.m.

We keep the freeway eastbound plowed if folks need to head back to the better places. This is how we do it in Oregon. We like it this way.

squarehead — Fri Dec. 19th 12:57p.m.

Winner!!

oregonbeliever — Fri Dec. 19th 1:04p.m.

Rather than a constructive response talking about the reasons not to salt the roads, you launch into a rant like a xenophobic prat. It is people like you that make me ashamed of my adopted city sometimes.

I do agree that salting is a bad idea because of the environmental impact discussed above. I agree snow doesn't happen here often enough to merit major investment in response equipment.

hazeladd — Fri Dec. 19th 1:08p.m.

I'm betting that a lot of the Smug East Coasters moved out here, just like Californians because Oregon was "So Cheap". Now they complain that they don't have the services that they grew up with in their, overcrowded and overtaxed states. The flip side of lower cost of living is the fact that the state and the city don't hold your hand every step of the way.

FredPDX — Fri Dec. 19th 2:18p.m.

You're really suggesting that Oregon housing prices are lower than Urban California and parts of the East Coast because Oregon provides less public assistance? Seriously!? For a hit about the real reason prices are lower, you might want to take an economics course.

I'd heard Oregon k-12 schools were in trouble, but I had no idea how bad it was!

hazeladd — Fri Dec. 19th 4:26p.m.

"Personal Responsibility" for these rare events can be *far* *more* *costly* in several ways than preparation by the government. Typical worst-case personal behavior is buying a big SUV or other AWD/4-wheel-drive vehicle just on the slim chance you'll need to drive your kid to the doctor on one of the 3 days per year when the roads are slightly slippery.

If we had better road clearing or "emergency" salting of the roads by the cities and towns, maybe people wouldn't feel compelled to buy monster trucks that contribute to climate change all year round when they're totally unneeded.

Chains may be "out-dated" for use in cities of the East, but they're a very effective, inexpensive solution for occasional, temporary or spotty weather problems of the Northwest.

Derek1G — Fri Dec. 19th 12:44p.m.

Wow that is a ridiculous argument. I doubt there are many Willamette valley residents out there buying SUVs & trucks simply because there may be a week of snow in any given year.
The popularity of larger vehicles is a national phenomenon... completely unrelated.

oregonbeliever — Fri Dec. 19th 12:48p.m.

Well, not necessarily true, I have a coworker whose husband is out looking for 4WD trucks b/c of this weather.

jvandub — Fri Dec. 19th 12:52p.m.

Please put it in perspective though. Your coworker's husband is obviously the exception.

oregonbeliever — Fri Dec. 19th 1:05p.m.

One cool thing i've found about inclement weather is that it forces you to shop VERY locally. We've managed to Christmas shop and grocery shop, go to the post office and yoga class etc all in our neighborhood by walking. Most of the shops in the NE Alberta area have all been open because a lot of the shop owners and employees live in the neighborhood. Otherwise there is tri-met! i know this doesn't work for all neighborhoods, but it is an argument to create small neighborhood microcosms in our city.

i'm from Las Vegas, which has even worse snow removal! It's great here!

amy daileda — Fri Dec. 19th 12:58p.m.

I have listened to your previous shows on the political/social divide between Central Oregon and the West side of Oregon, and there is indeed of divide of experience between the two! One, ODOT incorporates a budget for snow removal. This is a given. Two, Central Oregonians know how to survive the winters that Mother Nature throws at them. When city snow plows come thru in the mornings after major snow storms, people are there on the streets, sidewalks clearing what the city does not clear. Call it survival mode, and for the business community it is their economic survival. On the issue of driving, again, Central Oregonians are experienced in driving in the most adverse winter conditions. How do I know this? I survived 16 winters in Bend, and I thought I left all this white stuff behind me when I moved to Portland! Mother Nature's karma comin at us!

ayerhere — Fri Dec. 19th 1:05p.m.

It is strange that on one hand, people say that it doesn't snow that often here, and then say things like salt ruins cars and the environment.

If it doesn't snow that much, there won't be enough salt used to harm anything.

It is strange that on one hand, people say it doesn't snow that often here, and then say it should be a personal responsiblity to handle the problem by spending the money on tires and chains.

Since is snows infrequently, not very many people know how to properly install their chains. And if you install your chains improperly, they can wrap around your axle and sever your brake lines.

Luke T. — Fri Dec. 19th 12:46p.m.

I'm from Minnesota, where we know snow and how to deal with it. Chains on tires are definitely out, as are studded tires, because of the destruction they cause to the streets. It seems that the cost of more frequent road repair necessary because of everyone driving around with chains on their tires could be offset by an investment in some more snow-plows, with less harm to the economy because the city would remain up and running.

berdiei — Fri Dec. 19th 12:47p.m.

I Laugh at all the comments from "recently transplanted' Oregonians, the person from New Jersy kind of hit it by posting his friends' comment about using a sales tax to buy some snow ploughs. The snow's just an occasional thing here, we don't have to budget for a winter of snow and that's reflected in our relatively low cost of living. So if you folks from Hartford, Buffalo, Cleavland or wherever back east can't deal with our Cultural Snow Panic, you're welcome to hop in your Suburbans and head east.

FredPDX — Fri Dec. 19th 12:48p.m.

i'm a relocated minnesotan, and while all the closures and panic was comical, i understand that oregon is different. i don't expect there to be as many snowplows or for roads to be cleared as quickly - it's not a consistent issue like it is in other parts of the country. and as far as chains go - no, they're not used in most parts of the country, but they're understandable in the mountains and/or hilly areas here. i have a subcompact car (read: very light), have no chains, and have no intentions of buying them. for the majority of us living in center city, good driving sense is all we need (including knowing when not to drive).

my frustration lies squarely with the local news for continuous news coverage hype, which i think created most of the panic and resulting behavior.

fivealive — Fri Dec. 19th 12:48p.m.

The fact that the small amount of snow accumulated in Portland in the last practically shut the city down is ridiculous, especially since Portland has an outstanding public transportation system that has been running very efficiently during these storms.
And as a parent of a school-aged child, I wish the school districts would at least wait until a storm happens before cancelling classes. We all want our children to be safe, but unnecessary closing - as happened Wednesday when schools were closed and no storm occurred - affects the parents who could otherwise go to work as well.

Mary L — Fri Dec. 19th 12:48p.m.

Grew up in Pittsburgh.
Find Portland's snow-fueled paralysis amusing/curious/frightening.
Per tpohara, it really doesn't need to be this way.
Is there a publicly available cost-benefit analysis that justifies the claims that it's not worth the extra investment to better manage these conditions?
It's simply not acceptable for many, many people to miss work and startlingly insensitive of people to suggest otherwise.

perplexed1 — Fri Dec. 19th 12:49p.m.

I haven't been in Pittsburgh for years, but I have done the turnpike WAY more times in the winter than I would like... and been trapped in a truck stop not far from Pitt. when light ice on a thin layer of packed snow dumped a NY RV into a bridge abutment, killing all on board and closing the westbound side of the road for a day.

On the other hand, I've driven un-chained loaded tractor-trailer pairs in blowing snow in Montana (where the roads wouldn't be plowed for at least a day more) without problems.

I don't think it's about the equipment, per say, but the drivers. Casual winter drivers usually don't have enough experience with spin-outs or controlled skids to be confident that they know what to do when they happen and they panic in advance. That or they're sure they can handle it the same as bare pavement and act like nothing will ever be out of their control. If they ever help a lady out of the upside-down SUV with blood on her face and realize that there but for the grace of God they could be, maybe, just maybe they might catch on (yes, I have: interstate 25 in Wyoming on Christmas-eve morning year before last... if they hadn?t landed in a snowdrift when they flipped, the impact would likely have crushed the roof the rest of the way down on them).

I learned to drive in snow and ice in a Sears parking lot. Loose and packed snow on an ice and frozen slush base. Scared the ... out of me at first, but until I began driving truck, it was a regular ritual at first snow/ice every year: find an empty parking lot and break the current car free. You learn your limitation and you train your reflexes and responses. That was what I was getting at about the skid car: not everyone has access to a frozen parking lot.

Look, we probably can't fix stupid, folks who think they are invincible will continue to act that way regardless of training. But folks who are paranoid usually want to get better. I figure half the problem fixed is better than none of it...

tpohara — Fri Dec. 19th 1:21p.m.

I grew up in Indiana and also lived in Chicago for a time. I have spent significant amounts of time in Boston, New York, Northern Michigan, and Northern Wisconsin in addition to all points in between in the winter, yet my first experience in a vehicle with snow chains was in Beaverton yesterday. I understand the budget constraints on having plows here, and feel it necessary to clarify what others have said and dispell the myths about plows. By no means do all roads get plowed and salted. It costs money, takes time, and is nearly impossible when the snow keeps coming. That being said, it is more than possible to drive and maintain a relatively normal life without chains on roads that are covered with snow for weeks on end. And I am talking Civics and sedans, not monster trucks. Chains are illegal in many places that do not plow, and life carries on. Just be careful, patient, and safe. I have been giving driving lessons to my coworkers and they say that they are having no trouble.

eholsen — Fri Dec. 19th 12:51p.m.

Nice job on the driving lessons!

ORSunshine — Fri Dec. 19th 1:55p.m.

like Paul and his wife, i'm from a small town in New Jersey. the town plowed even the dirt road i grew up on. we were never trapped on the top of our hill the way we are trapped on the top of hill here.
i watched a snow plow on sw vermont yesterday. in NJ, the snow plows scrape right down to the pavement. this snow plow left about inch of snow and slush on the street surface. when you don't get the snow off the road surface, driving on it packs it down and turns it into ice at night.
my last point is about school closures. i live near Wilson High and Reike Elementary. the school district did absolutely nothing to clear the sidewalks or parking lots. so the snow turned into ice on the sidewalks and parking lots. it's difficult to open the school when you can't walk safely from Capital Hwy to the front door of your school.

milodog — Fri Dec. 19th 12:52p.m.

I'm from the midwest and one thing I think people from the back east are forgetting that we have out here that we don't have back east...topography. It definitely comes into play when travleing state wide. And lets face it, the east is alot more crowded, so more people, more resources (not just snow clearing equipment, but tow-trucks). Also, using salt can very corrosive to vehicles, whereas the liquid de-icer is not.

Crackerbat — Fri Dec. 19th 12:53p.m.

I also moved to Portland from upstate NY where a "clear roads" policy requires regular salting, making traction devices and even snow tires an "anachronism." Not only is the salt damaging to the natural environment, but also to cars which wera out much more quickly. When I first moved to Portland with a relatively ew vehicle the mechanics were shocked at the condition of my exhaust system. I explained that we simply took it for granted that they only lasted a couple of years given the salt.

blackbrook — Fri Dec. 19th 12:53p.m.

I agree that it is ridiculous for everyone to just shut down once we get a little snow or ice. At the same time, I get tired of the chorus of newer Portlanders who harp on how we need to dump salt on the roads or buy more plows.

Maybe someone in favor of it should formulate a plan for the proposed winter snow patrol and then put out all the equipment and resources for bidding and see what it costs. Then, once the snow clears, I wish you the best of luck trying to get local government leaders or the taxpaying public to cough up much additional revenue for what you propose.

To me, owning a set of tire chains if one is dependent on driving a car in snow and ice is as important as owning a warm coat. Get them, try putting them on once or twice before a storm hits, and then just carry them in your car from about Thanksgiving until mid-March and we can do without school closures in the case of 1/2 an inch and missed work.

As for school closures, I would like to suggest that in the case where the weather is something less than a blizzard that we have the schools remain open and put the burden on parents to excuse their kids from classes if attendance is not feasible.

adamrobins — Fri Dec. 19th 12:54p.m.

This issue seems to boil down in large part to how much a community is willing to budget for intensively maintaining a network of streets. As it is, people oppose a modest new gas tax for improving street maintenance. But one thing with salt, and some of the substitutes, is the possibility of concrete damage, particularly when strong freeze-thaw cycles are a potential issue.

Alex J — Fri Dec. 19th 12:55p.m.

Simple fix people. Tax everyone who is not a native Oregonian enough to destroy vehicles and environment with salt, and to repair ALL of the damaged caused.

Not willing to put up that kind of money? Then shut up!

DC2008 — Fri Dec. 19th 1:10p.m.

This may be a bit off the subject, but I would like to make my annual complaint on TV coverage of Oregon snowstorms. I find it ridiculous that all the local channels are on all the time giving us the same information. What a massive waste of money! And missing regular programming drives viewers mad! Why can't they set up a system where a different station is assigned to cover the weather news each day? Monday, KATU; Tuesday, KGW; Wednesday, KOIN; Thursday, KPTV....and so forth.
The identity of current weather station could be run continuously at the bottom of the screen. THIS WOULD GIVE US A CHOICE AND LET THE HARD-WORKING REPORTERS HAVE A BREAK!!! All weather, all the time, all the channels is a bad idea.
Karen Runkel, Salem

Karen Runkel — Fri Dec. 19th 12:55p.m.

but what fantastic ratings from the ensuing panic, eh?

fivealive — Fri Dec. 19th 12:56p.m.

although i'm not advocating salt, there's a lot of misinformation here. i lived in minnesota for 25 years, where salt is used ALL WINTER. first, newer cars tend not to be as succeptable to the salt corrosion, and it's very rare to see rusted cars back there. so if salt WAS used here, none of you would experience corrosion from its infrequent use. second, in the midwest, you take your car through the car wash occassionally during winter to get the salt (and other dirt) off. again, i'm not advocating salt, but it's not going to ruin anyone's car.

fivealive — Fri Dec. 19th 12:55p.m.

Amen to Gerald's comments!! We live outside Sunriver in Central Oregon but I'm a native Vermonter and my wife is from Wisconsin. I've been in Oregon for 30 years and I'm still appalled and mystified at ODOT's (and Deschutes County's) lax attitude toward winter road maintenance. Both Vermont, and all New England states and Wisconsin spend a substantial part of their budget on clearing winter roads. They "plow with the storm" and sand with melting compounds immediately, not haphazardly houtrs or days later. Unlike Hwy 97, roads in Vt. and wisconsin do not have several inches of ice buildup days after a storm, leading to deaths on the highway. Hwy 97 every year has 6-10 deaths from cars sliding across the road. There is no excuse for this.
Your ODOT guest on the radio said that sand and ice melting chemicals are used by ODOT. I've never seen it here.ODOT uses crushed pumice, nearly useless for traction, and I've had 5 broken widshields in 8 years from flying large pieces.
My suggestion: fire all those now in charge at ODOT and Deschutes County and recruit some road masters from New England, New York, or the upper midwest who know how to keep the roads clear! Our foremost road policy should be saving LIVES, as in these other states, not road maintenance money!!
And the "love it or leave it" comments don't deserve rebuttal.

jimpease — Fri Dec. 19th 1:14p.m.

I was the first on-air caller his morning and wanted to clarify that I DO have chains for my car, but only for one, not for both. However, due to the poor quality of the streets in town, I chose not to drive at all to avoid having an accident for the sake of a loaf of bread. I did walk to a local grocery store, about a mile from my home, and found the going treacherous. The city has limited resources for snow removal, since it's not a typical weather condition. However, sanding more roads and requiring residents to clear the sidewalks in front of their houses is not an unreasonable expectation. Personal responsibility extends to all citizens and the municipality. I mentioned the possibility of lawsuits resulting from personal injuries when streets and sidewalks are not cleared of ice and snow. Can the city afford the legal ramifications if someone is hurt due to a lack of maintenance?

The financial losses suffered by local businesses because driving was impossible affect the city as well as its residents. Albany is participating in the Main Street program, an effort to encourage the revitalization of the downtown core. How can we support our local businesses if we can't get there? When any business closes, tax revenue suffers, and there isn't sufficient money to support public works. It's a vicious cycle, but one that needs to be addressed with forethought and planning. Being ready for the occasional snow storm is one of those situations. The economy of small businesses depends largely on the holiday rush and snow usually comes at the holiday season. Therefore, it can be expected that inclement weather may be a factor in the success of these small establishments.

herdesign — Fri Dec. 19th 1:15p.m.

Gerald is completely right! Nothing epitomizes the provincialism of this state like the locals' knee-jerk defense of this state's pathetic response to snow. In the Northeast and the Midwest, this kind of snow would be a non-event. Every town in New Jersey or Illinois would plow and salt EVERY street, not just major thoroughfares. And why the steadfast refusal to use salt? Has anyone really done a study of the environmental damage that salt allegedly causes? The refusal to use salt seems like pure ideological opposition. What about the environmental damage caused by sand and gravel? What about the fact that the lack of salt and plowing causes more people to buy SUV's than otherwise would, which is worse for the environment? Those need to be factored into the analysis.

Also, no one in the rest of the civilized world uses chains, except in the mountains. In no other city with a large population are people getting by with chains. No one has even heard of chains in the Midwest or Northeast; they're viewed as a quaint relic of pre-plowing days.

PDXvoter — Fri Dec. 19th 1:21p.m.

Between the Midwesterners and East Coasters complaining about snow removal and Californians complaining about the rain, I don't know how Oregonians manage to remain so gracious to transplants.

I moved here a year ago from Chicago, where no one will be surprised to know that snow removal in your neighborhood depends on whether your alderman has clout with the mayor. A district that voted the "wrong" way might just get missed by the plows. So much for efficiency.

Winter driving is more treacherous here with all the curves and hills and without the salt trucks. I trust Portland will analyze the environmental impact and cost-benefit for investing in more salting and plowing for rare weather events.

Meanwhile, I agree with those natives who recommend slowing down and enjoying the season. It's gorgeous here, and people might not drive well in snow, but all year they let you in and smile. Please don't make me go back to Chicago!

DolceFarNiente — Fri Dec. 19th 1:38p.m.

Dolce!

As a Native Oregonian, I say you're welcome to stay, you have the right attitude. As far as staying gracious to transplants, well, maybe it's the coffee, the beer and the mild year 'round weather. Besides, enough rainy days will cause californians to leave. Obviously Midwesterners and East Coasters are made of much sterner stuff. I'm sure they'll be able to handle the next massive volcano explosion or the "big one" with aplomb ;)

FredPDX — Fri Dec. 19th 2:08p.m.

When you say Native, do you mean that you're a member of the tribes who settled here? Or do you mean that you were born here because your parents, or their parents, or whatever moved in and screwed with a place that was once more pristine than you now brag of it as being? If the latter, as I strongly suspect:
1) What gives you the right to say who can and can not live here?
2) What makes an Oregonian who is naive of the joys of living anywhere else a better Oregonian than one who saw other places and chose to live here?

hazeladd — Fri Dec. 19th 6:28p.m.

I have an interesting background when it comes to snow. I grew up Portland Oregon. I remember as a kid being amazed whenever snow actually stuck to the ground, and the frequent ice storms. Like this last week nobody was ever ready for when it snowed or iced.

For seven years I lived in Klamath Falls Oregon. In The Klamath basin we get snow and ice about 6 months out of the year, and a large portion of the population are people like me who have come to the collage in that town from the valley. People in the Klamath basin rarely closed down anything during the winter for a variety of reasons, despite the fact that much of that areas residential is at least as hilly as Portland.

First and foremost there is a bit of ego. Like some of the people who commented on the show, they were simply used to it, and they knew what to do a bit more. It was fairly rare to see a car on the side of the road.

Second, Traction tires and chains were far more common on cars, studded tires are common sites even in bicycle shops. Also, far more people in that area had 4X4 trucks with sandbags in the back, which are far more effective even without traction tires or chains than almost any car without similar tires. This also makes it so that more people are able to see a person who has gone in a ditch and help them out of said ditch before a tow truck gets there, makes it so you were less likely to see a car on the side of the road.

Now I heard a lot of people talking about the responsibility of the city for plowing all the residential areas. Even in Klamath Falls the plows only really touched the most traveled roads, which is about 10 percent of the roads. On those roads, the plows would be going probably once every half hour or so while it was snowing at first, then about once a day once it calmed down. I would say that the majority of the plowing in the residential districts was done BY the residents. During my time in that town, I lived in three different parts of town, and in each, there was always at least one person who I would see on a regular basis either with a snowplow, or a plow attachment for their truck. Snow blowers were also much more common there so that it was really easy to clear a path to ones house or business. Despite all this, I would still say that the roads were never completely clear. When everything finally started to melt around march, there would at least two inches of slush that cars would be driving through until the plows got rid of it.

While I do believe that the cities could do a better job in the valley, the residents are just as much at fault for everything that has happened this last week as well. I?m not saying go out and buy a truck just for the winter, but be aware that this stuff does happen, and don?t get caught off guard when this does happen. In other words, be prepared, don't be stupid, and don't panic when the unexpected happens.

Aaron.Weingarten — Fri Dec. 19th 1:42p.m.

Northeast and midwest states get FAR MORE SNOW than we do here in Oregon. I don't have statistics, but I know that the snow is deeper and more frequent there. The five to ten days of snow/ice we get in Oregon per year do not justify the investment in plows, sand, or salt trucks in this state. Period. I'm a native Oregonian and I get tired of all the whining from people who have moved here from snowier climates and don't get the shut-down. While I see the comical virtues of three inches of snow causing total shut-down of schools and community events, I also understand that it's a temporary blip in the regularly scheduled events in the state. Perhaps if Oregon starts experiencing more average days of snow/ice then the budgets will be examined for investments in plows and salt.

Drivers in Oregon are a problem. I worked at a ski hill for a winter and had to drive in the Cascades through blizzard conditions. I have also traveled over the pass in northern Idaho during the winter and have seen some pretty bad snow and ice and driven successfully through much of it without chains or studs on my tires. I have chains, I bought them a week after I bought my car in October 2005. I know that it is better to be prepared than to be caught on icy roads with no traction options. But, like many experienced snow drivers have said: chains aren't really necessary for driving around the valley in the snow. Common sense and reasonable driving speeds along with experience in controlled slliding are all that is needed.

Down in Eugene we saw some total morons clipping along on the freeways at 50 mph during the first bout of snow this year... they wound up in the ditch. We also suffered from the 10 mph drivers who caused traffic to slowly snake behind them unnecessarily, adding to driver angst and frustration. Balance and education is needed.

My boyfriend's parents moved up here from Orange County and drive a car that doesn't even allow chains (some Buick old-person car). They should stay home anyway if they don't know how to drive in the snow without chains on flat roads!!! I think a lot of the problems in Portland are likely from some of these transplants. And 4WD does NOT make driving on snow/ice any safer! I've seen more 4WD drivers go faster and slide into ditches than good standard front-wheel drive cars. Overconfidence and lack of experience can be an ugly combination.

ORSunshine — Fri Dec. 19th 1:49p.m.

I'm originally from- gasp!- New York City. I lived in the state of Maine for four years and I've been in the Willamette Valley for 16 years now. My very first year here, over a foot of snow fell in the hills of Eugene. My elderly landlady and I were trapped for four days. I'm experiencing a similar situation now. Does anyone really think this is reasonable?

eleuthera — Fri Dec. 19th 2:19p.m.

To all the folks that complain about the detrimental effects of having the kids out of school for a few days: what difference does it make if they make the days up in June? Having taught elementary school for 26 years, I know that long summer vacations are not exactly the best for education anyway (although I do love my own 9 week summer break!). Let the kids enjoy the snow so they have something to write about in their journals when they get back in January!

As for salting the roads... please don't! I like my chevy truck as it is and don't need any corrosion! My transplanted Norwegian friend tells me that the few nicks and dents in his car would be massive rust if he drove his Oregon car on the salty Norwegian roads... I live at one of Salem's highest elevations and have to deal with more snow than most of the city does, but who cares? Just learn to drive in it! Go slow, leave plenty of room ahead of you, and shift into a lower gear if you need to go on an icy hill. Oregon is known for it's healthy respect for nature, so let's continue that tradition and be responsible enough to leave the salt at the coast... If our friends from Connecticut miss the salt that much, the eastbound lanes of I-84 are still open; but we'd rather have you stay, adopt our values, and be one of us!

NotintheBox — Fri Dec. 19th 2:25p.m.

I don't know how Oregon stacks up with other states. I lived in hilly Hood River for six years and there was more snow there than in Portland. Hood River uses lots of gravel along with plows, but it was imperative to learn how to drive on snow or accept being bound indoors.

I don't think Portland or Oregon should spend more on dealing with snow than we do. I hate the idea of salt which pollutes run-off water, rusts cars. I'd prefer that Oregonians be better prepared for Winter. Have chains, know how to install them. Learn how to drive on snow and ice. When I was in high school I practised driving on snow and ice in empty parking lots. Not only good fun but I learned how the vehicle behaves when it loses traction.

I feel bad for Oregon's highways when people roll on studs from November to April while inclement weather lasts two or three days. This cold weather snap is unusual, not typical.

Unfortunately, it's hard to teach how to drive on snow when it doesn't happen that often here. That's probably our biggest disadvantage to overcome.

trurl9 — Fri Dec. 19th 8:23p.m.

My husband and I recently moved to Portland from Minneapolis, Minnesota. I have to agree with a lot of you here that Portland seems to handle the occasional snowfall just fine. If you don't get the opportunity to drive in enough snow/ice conditions to gather a good skill-set for it, staying off the road is a good choice.

And I'm not saying drivers in this region are any less able than anywhere else. As anyone who hails from a snow state can probably attest to, the first snowfall of the season is usually filled with drivers who have forgotten all their winter driving skills and will have a higher proportion of accidents and people in the ditch than subsequent storms. I saw it happen year after year after year.

So, if the first snowfall of the season is probably your only one, just parking it for a minute or two until it melts seems a good decision to me.

blu3sky — Sat Dec. 20th 8:28p.m.

For me personally, it is always about what you are acclimated to. I have lived in places for considerable lengths of time with extreme temperatures in the local environment. In Texas, without air conditioning, where it is over 100 degrees for weeks on end to living in NYC during extreme winter conditions. Now I have lived in Portland for 10 years where it rains frequently and the summers are relatively short. Interestingly, in all of these differing climates children have played outside fine and the local community thrives. But in opposite climates that one is not acclimated to, parents and teachers have said, Oh, no children cannot play outside when it is hot, or children cannot play outside when it is snowing and cold, or children cannot play outside when it raining....Yet, in all of these environments children have played outside in seemingly extreme climates or weather.

My point that I am trying to make is that it is a matter of perspective. When a community is dealing with snow for weeks or months out of the year then the city and local community is adequately prepared. To expect Portlanders to have the same level of preparation as those who live on the upper East Coast is ridiculous and I would guess is not fiscally sound since we have such storms so infrequently. Besides Portland is a beautiful, progressive, and fantastic city. And just try to convince someone in another state to walk without umbrellas in the rain or let their children play out in the rain...

It is all about acclimation. If you are not happy with how Portland operates, then go back to the East Coast....

csb3609 — Sat Dec. 27th 2:18a.m.

Comments are now closed.