SHARE THIS SHOW:
RELATED CONVERSATIONS:
RECENTLY ON TOL:
TOL Our Town
- A tumblr site dedicated to the people and places that make up Oregon and Southwest Washington.
TAGS:
A Multnomah County jury has found that the Boy Scouts of America — along with the regional Boy Scouts chapter and the Mormon church that sponsored that chapter — were negligent in failing to protect a scout from an abusive assistant scoutmaster in the early 1980s. The suit was brought by Kerry Lewis, who was sexually abused by assistant scoutmaster, Timur Dykes. Lewis was awarded $1.4 in non-economic damages. He has also asked for punitive damages of $25 million; jurors will deliberate on those damages at a later date. Boy Scouts of America has already announced that they will appeal.
At the heart of the case were the so-called perversion files that the Boy Scouts of America kept for their internal use. In order to weed out potential volunteers who were unfit for the Scouts, they kept lists not just of "child molesters, thieves and johns but also gays, atheists and agnostics." Attorneys for the plaintiffs argued that despite such careful record-keeping, and despite the fact that Dykes admitted to Scout officials that he'd molested 17 boy scouts, he was still allowed to associate with the troop.
What's your experience with the Boy Scouts? Did you participate as a scout, or a volunteer? What lessons have you taken from this trial? What parallels — and what differences — do you see between this story and the ongoing scandal in the Catholic church?
GUESTS:
- Amelia Templeton: Reporter for OPB News
- Bart Mitchell: Bend resident who became an Eagle Scout in 1990
- Patrick Boyle: Editor of Youth Today and author of Scout's Honor
Tagged as: abuse · boy scouts
Photo credit: rocket ship / Creative Commons
-
look you think the boy scouts has the power to run back round checks like a police department? you left the cub scouts because of your beliefs? you were less than 12 years old you lie if you left you left for your parents beliefs?
"I guess when it comes down to it, I don't have much use for either organized religion or the BSA, when things such as this come to light."
how can you say that when you just said,
"My view of (and my hope for) America is that we be a nation and a society that not only tolerates, but accepts and indeed celebrates our diversities -- ALL of our diversities, whether our diversities are racial, faith-based, sexual orientation, gender identity, or national origin."
penny the boy scouts (I being an eagle scout but have no other connections since) taught day in and day out about being morally chast and having healthy non sexual relations they are the best thing for our youth today in a gang infested and prostitution drug run society that im sure you love to partake in!
-
The church has been abusing small boys in this manner for centuries. Catholics in the Mideast (where I spent many yrs) NEVER left their youngsters alone with priests. It was accepted that most were pederasts. Mideast Catholics are aghast at the American practice of leaving their young boys alone with priests.
I became a Boy Scout in an Oregon town in the late 40s. My dad after attending 2 or 3 meetings took me out of it. He never really explained why until many yrs later. He said then that he thought the unmarried scout master was not altogether normal. Some years later this same man was caught molesting a boy.
What I don't understand is WHY a boy will continue returning to a molesting adult after that initial encounter. I would have run like hell straight to my folks if any man tried to touch me in an intimate way, and my dad would have dealt in a straightforward way with that man.
But now we have these adult males coming forward with their mothers 25 yrs later- with the scent of money in the air- and confessing that this priest or that scout master diddled him 25 or 40 times and the boy NEVER told his parents!!!
My view is this: The first time abuse occurs the boy is a victim, if he continues to return to the abuser he is a willing participant. Now that there is so much money connected to abuse charges, these weeping "victims" are suddenly crawling out from under every rock.
-
I am continually saddened by the frantic enthusiastic coverage of trials such as this. Not only does this type of coverage parade the victims of such crimes in front of everyone, but it destroys valuable and trusted institutions that have done vast amounts of good in the United States. I have been a Boy Scout as a youth and earned my Eagle Scout award. I have served as an assistant scout master, a scout master, a venturing advisor and now as an assistant district commisioner and I have seen the good that this program does in building wiggly boys into good upright men.
I do believe that caution and education are vital in protecting our youth from abuse, whether it be in scouting or sports or school or friends houses. I have two young sons in the scouting program and we have talked about the importance of protecting themselves from abuse. I am confronted by child abuse regularly in my job as a pediatrician and I see the devastation that occurs in the lives of children who have been abused by those who should be protecting and teaching them.
I think this zealous pursuit to destroy institutions that provide a framework to help create good men and women is misplaced. The perpetrators of the crimes need to be punished according to the laws, but the organizations should not be destroyed because of the deplorable actions of some participants. Who will teach morality and good character if the Boy Scouts and other such organizations are destroyed by continued law suits? Can we turn to the mainstream media to teach our youth to be trustworthy, honorable, and hardworking? Do sit coms, video games or reality shows teach the youth of today to be leaders and philanthopists?
Obviously, safeguards need to be in place to keep criminals of all stripes away from our children. I think the continual chorus of detractors that try to make the Boy Scouts appear as a "Hate Group" or a bastion of pedophilia could put their energy into better use by helping these offended youth rather than clamoring for money from the Boy Scouts. I know that I have been helped and taught and strengthened by the Scouting program and I hope that my sons and grandsons will be able to feel the pride of participating in this great movement of service and honor in the years to come.
Chris Shaw, M.D.
-
Although I come from a very "different side of the fence," (formerly convicted pedophile, not a respected MD) I applaud your sober points.
The legitimization of vengence through financial enrichment; MONEY as a cure for past emotional trauma - destroys a social quality of life by facilitating the legitimacy of instant wealth for the PREDATORY ATTORNEYS of the "me's," while everybody else ('WE") become more paranoid in every day dealing with our fellow countryman. Please consider my perspective further in my own posting below noted earlier this morning.
Now Identified as a "formerly convicted pedophile" (who has been incarcerated, had sex offender treatment, and not reoffended in the 19 years since my release) will cause some to dismiss me, outright. It's not that by contesting the integrity of multi-million dollar lawsuits, I'm negating the legitimacy of the original problem (the molestation, and it's after affects.) I'm not. It's not whether molestation (besides being illegal) is wrong, or not. The ISSUE here is one of PERSPECTIVE. By legitimatizing multi-million dollar lawsuits against huge institutions who have ALREADY CHANGED THEIR POLICIES AND PROCEDURES, FOR YEARS, because those organizations have deep pockets in a way that a man who lived next door when the kid was 11- does not, now we've made it okay to have a new PREDATOR: the litigation attorney, piously presenting himself as "the advocate for defenseless children" - while he pockets his 40% of the multi - million dollar take!
(don't believe this figure? Call Kelly Clark's office!)
The individual "wins" - and EVERYBODY ELSE - looses (a quality of life)
Example? - Do a bit of research and look at all the men who have LEFT the teaching profession (in the younger grades) or all the men who are not even trying to go into the profession, anymore. "Watch your backside" is America's new watchword. Then look at all the ripple effects that has, on society, and the upbringing of boys. Then think how effectively PREDATORS like Kelly Clark succeed, because they have MANIPULATED those potent negative emotions of RIGHTEOUS OUTRAGE.
Walter Jeremy
PS: Violent video games and junk foods which prey upon impressionable young? Well they're CORPORATE offenders, not individuals, so people don't respond to THEIR offenses in the same visceral way.
-
This is for Jeremy below. I am the father of two sons and three daughters and so far five grandsons. If any pederast touched one of these I would pound him to mush.
If more fathers were still willing to deal in a straightforward way with molesters there would be a hell of a lot less of this activity going on. The tolerance (actual celebration) of homosexual behavior in our society is the major reason for the rise of these kinds of offences.
I have lived in several countries where it was rife...Pakistan, Afghanistan and Indonesia to name three such. In all three the prime target for these perverts is small boys NOT other adult males. I know that in the US, the homosexual community denies that this is the case, but many people who have lived and worked in countries where homosexual behavior is commonplace know that it is primarily aimed at young boys.
Boobus americanus has, as usual, been duped by the newest fad...homosexuals as the darlings of the media, into accepting their assurances that they never, EVER pray on young boys...scout masters and priests, teachers, and church youth councilors excepted, of course.
-
The Boy Scouts of America ought to pay this victim his fair share. The national organization has real weaknesses, including its stances on homosexuality and atheism. I think it is incredibly important that the national organization be forced to reform.
However, that should not overshadow the amazing work that the program does on the ground level. Boy Scouts creates amazing leaders out of young boys. From Tiger Cubs through Eagle Scouts, youth are learning every day how to live in nature, be good citizens, and lead those around them. The practice of putting senior youth in charge of troops is irreplaceable experience. No other organization I know of empowers so many young people - not just a few impressive youth in every troop, but ever single troop member.
My own Eagle Award is not simply a line on the resume or a bragging right. With the support of an entire organization full of caring adults, I was one of many young men able to achieve more in our grade school years than some achieve in their whole lives. What we gave to the community and our fellow scouts was very real and simply cannot be undermined by the absolute negligence of those at the local and national level who allowed this travesty to occur.
-
And you should be proud of your Eagle Award, as should others who have earned theirs through hard work, respect, and integrity. Among the more famous Eagle Scouts of the past: (Former President) Gerald Ford, (Astronaut) Neil Armstrong, Sam Walton, (Mayor) Michael Bloomberg, and (Secretary of Defense) Robert Gates.
You are right that some people achieve more before their 21st birthday than most people do their whole lives.
Those who perpetrated this atrocity and those who allowed it to happen need to be held to account.
-
I have met several gay men who loved scouting, were NOT abused by the virtually exclusive heterosexual predators that populate childhood sexual abusers, and are pained greatly that they cannot contribute to the socialization of male youth through the BSA as troop leaders.
The reason? More than half the scouting troops are sponsored by the homophobic, stakes in the US operated by a "religious" community.
The potential for good that the BSA endeavors to achieve is perverted by the cover-ups, blaming of gay men, and the support of "powerful", dominant, sexist, sadistic, male figures in our culture.
-
And it is a shame that those you know who wish to participate and help raise the youth of our nation (who eventually may be our leaders) are prevented from doing so by such outdated and homophobic attitudes as those that currently infect the present leadership.
Maybe the key is that churches or religious groups should not be the ones sponsoring the Dens, Packs and Troops. Perhaps they should be sponsored by schools and school districts, which are legally prohibited from discriminating against people on the basis of race, religion, sexual orientation or gender identity. (Itawamba County Schools in Mississippi notwithstanding -- they're down in the South and have their own problems.)
Just my 5 cents (accounting for inflation.)
-
My Father was a professional Scout Executive, back east, for over thirty years, and my brothers and I were all vigorous participants, my elder brother achieving the rank of Eagle; I left the organization after accomplishing all the merit badges needed, but prior to achieving the rank, after the National Organization came out publicly in support of the Vietnam War.
The organization lost me, the second time, when they barred Gays from membership, using the utterly implausible argument that 'morally straight' implied a state of heterosexual orientation.
They have just lost me again, with this utterly unacceptable shielding of pedophiles.
I'm sadly certain, that my Father, who died in 1975, is turning in his urn.
For an organization whose primary purpose is to serve and provide tutelage and guidance for youth as they grow to adulthood, the Boy Scouts are, tragically, blind and without a moral compass.
-
In the same timeframe as this case, myself and allegedly others were molested by a Scoutmaster that was, due to his service record, virtually above reproach. The only thing that kept the case under wraps was the fact that he committed suicide the day before the grand jury indictment against him, which even prevented his name from being released into the local media. There was only a passing mention in the newspaper of a "dismissed case against an alleged child molester," without any Scout mention whatsoever. I wasn't the one who came forward and in fact lied to the investigators at the time. I was about to go to college and did not want to relive it all. I came to regret that selfish act later but took some consolation in the fact that he was dead and could not injure anyone else. From the bits and pieces I've heard via OPB, the parallels between my case and this one are horrifying and difficult to hear, particularly the sleepovers. We were all working class kids, many of us with overworked single mothers who were more than happy to have a highly-decorated, grandfatherly figure watching over their children from time to time. Surely those molested would say something, right? The silence was so total that we did not even discuss it between one another, although I do remember catching the occasional odd sexual innuendo that clued you in that something was going on with others. I don't know, I might call in if I get the nerve. I already feel my anxiety level going through the roof, though.
-
This is an emotionally charged issue and rational thinking is the first casualty.
There are only 5 great apes: Humans, Gorillas, Orangutans, Chimpanzees and Pygmy Chimpanzees. DNA homology is over 98% with the last two groups. Civilization is only about 7,000 years old. 10,000 years ago we were scavenging the savana in small groups much like apes. We have some insight to these societies by studying ape troupes and their social mores and their society in the acadermic field of comparative anthropology.
Jane Goodall is a world renowned researcher studying one particular pygmy troupe longintudinally for decades. She has seen chimps 24 hours a day in field observation and seen the life cycle of death to birth of several generations of apes.
They have a very interesting and unique sexual practices. The infants are fondled and penetrated vaginally and anally by the mothers,siblings, peers and all adult members of the troupe dozens of times a day. Toddlers are fondled and molested. Adolescents are molested, penetrated, and even raped(non consensual sex). Adults have oral, genital and fondling more times in a week by same sex and different sex members than a porn star would get in a year. It's enough to ban children from the monkey house at the zoo.
Yet these are all healthy functioning members of their society. IF we used human criteria, every member of this wild troupe would be imprisoned for several life sentences, children would be ripped from their parents, and all would endure lifetime psychological counseling and tons of antipsychotic and antidepressive medications.
Medicine has no definite treatment for remote sexual abuse. Are all these victims permanently scarred requiring treatment for 10, 20, 40 , 50 years or a lifetime? Can they or should they ever be able or allowed to have normal human and sex relations? How does making them a millonaire dozens of times over really compensate? How is our law system really serving the patients? Are there greedy lawyers gaming the system?
-
Jacob, That's interesting information but I'm not sure how you mean to apply it exactly. It strikes me as an argument that what we call sex abuse is normal or at least should be accepted. Maybe it's just a point that even with those experiences someone can be a normal, functioning member of society.
I think your point to a settlement of money really doesn't solve anything is correct. Especially in cases where the behavior (policy) was changed prior to a suit being filed.
-
Sex molestation is a frequent attenuating factor in sentencing convicts. Over 90% of sex molestation victims are female. But over 90% of felons requesting sex abusee status are male. All childhood is potentially traumatic. Smart lawyers help make a sympathetic Charles Dicken's childhood to to manufacturer a "Get out of Jail Free Card."
Interestingly, someone who is beaten to 1 inch of death but survives, is not entitled to the same lifetime vicitm status as a rape survivor. A near murder vicitm or victim of a violent airplane crash is expected to get over it, and get back to living.
We know less about the long term significance of sex abuse. But making a victim a long suffering chronic ,needing lifetime psychological counseling and medication is not helpful. Imagine living in Haiti thru this last earthquake and seeing the dead bodies of your family and hundreds of corpses on the street. The whole country has PTSD needing lifetime prozac and a a weekly psychiatric couch sessions. But it will not happen. People will summon internal psychic strength and move on. Wallowing in self pity for a lifetime is dangerous.
We need to get over life and move on.
-
Jacob,
As this case so vividly presents: maybe "wallowing in self-pity" is (psychologically) "dangerous" but more than that, it can be immensely profitable: IF you go get yourself a PREDATORY "advocate" who will seize upon YOUR past "injustice" to fleece HIS pockets.
People's past hurts should be honored, and the mis-deeds which caused that pain, should be rectified, but in the America of recent decades we've taken a laudable concern and trumpeted it to a state of high drama: THE CELEBRATION OF VICTIMIZATION. The very major issue of litigation aside, for the person who presents himself as a "victim" to others, he gets big pay-offs- sympathy and attention he would not otherwise receive as a generic "just another guy" (or woman) trying to get through a day.
Just "move on?" Well, there's good sense- but no emotional DRAMA- in that!
Walter J.
-
agreed
-
I was a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout in my youth. It worked well for me.
I withdrew my support for the organization when they took a stance against homosexuality. As an African American, I can never support organizations that discriminate, regardless of what the discrimination is against.
I'm sorry that so many people fall victim to the bizarre sexual schizophrenia in the US, but I have no dog in the BSA negligence suit fight.
-
Conservative Christian Evangelicals are pretty much the sponsors of the Boy Scout organization, and they have been pretty vehement about how bad Catholics are for their treatment of priests. Now we see the hypocrites brought to light.
So what is it about the Conservative Religions that they have so many problems with abusing children, sexually and otherwise?
I was told several years ago that when Conservative Christian Churches find a predatory pedophile priest, they pay him off to leave quietly and keep his mouth shut, so they don't end up with the bad publicity problems that the Catholic Church has.
-
Sorry Tom, this case won't do that. The judgement is against the Boy Scouts "and the Mormon church that sponsored that chapter". The Latter Day Saints (Mormons) aren't Christian Evangelicals, conservative or otherwise. So organizationally you won't see it here.
FWIW, LDS units make up around half of the boy scouting organization in this area.
-
oh we pay him off for sure! infact on several accounts i have left a note in the tray saying "this is for my sons mollester"
-
To me, the larger issue is the Mormon Church's (cult) involvement in the Boy Scouts. I was shocked, but not surprised, to learn how pervasive the Mormon involvement in the BoyScouts has become. Clearly they are using the Boy Scouts as a proselytizing tool to recruit more people into the church, and I am convinced that the abuse was played down by the Church to avoid harming the Church and its recruitment efforts, at the cost of continued abuse to innocent victims. I would never let my son get near an organization that has so clearly become a religious arm, although I treasure my own Boy Scout experience. How far the organization has fallen. Until the organization excludes direct religious involvement and control like this, this type of abuse is at great risk to reoccur.
-
cult as defined by dictionary.com 1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
how can you be I was shocked, but not surprised when shocked means more than suprised?
the mormon church does not run the boy scouts it just expects its male youth to participate
to recruit? in all my years of scouting and mormonism i have never seen one friend of mine that i took to scouting so your wrong get your facts straight the church is a cult but so is pretty much every other non profit group that includes you and your granola eating friends
-
I was in Scouting from third grade through high school and for a few years beyond that. I attained my Eagle Scout rank and worked two seasons at Boy Scout summer camps in the Cascade Pacific Council.
Overall, I had positive experiences in Scouting, and I was certainly never the subject nor perpetrator of any of the type of abuse alleged in this recent trial. I grew increasingly uncomfortable with my involvement in the organization, however, as a result of the national organization's misguided response to sexual abuse scandals.
In an effort to bar pedophiles from the organization, Boy Scouts of America started rooting out and banning people based on their sexual orientation. I was uncomfortable with the implication that homosexuality and pedophilia were somehow linked, and eventually I came to the conclusion that I could not be actively involved in an organization with such homophobic policies any more than I could comfortably be a member of, say, a country club that bars membership by African Americans or Jews.
My own children are girls, and they are in the process of joining the Girl Scouts, a separate organization. I am hoping to some day feel comfortable interacting with the Boy Scouts again, but as long as current policies continue that won't be happening.
-
There are many reasons to dislike the Boy Scouts of America, but, as much as I would like to, it is perhaps erroneous to confuse those reasons with the sexual abuse. I suspect that the inherent nature of many groups that deal with young children is they run the risk of pedophilia. Organizations that speak from a moral platform, such as the BSA and the Catholic Church potentially run a greater risk, because of a lack of transparency, and a moral certainty that they do not wish to tarnish. When you present an image of moral superiority, it becomes easy to wish to hide your flaws, and to closet any offenses, that call into question the validity and effectiveness of your moral edifice. It might be hard to establish any causation between the sexual abuse and the religious and moral components of the BSA. The bigotry against homosexuals, and the religious and moral platforms of the BSA, are most likely separate issues from the sexual abuse.
-
"gays, atheists and agnostics."
Scouts ought to include boys in those groups as part of their needed reformation.
Scouts have done some good things but one of the problems is that they have become far too Conservative over the years. They ought to Liberalize their organization to include all american boys in learning about good citizenship, outdoors skills, and all the rest of the good things they do. And they ought to get themselves out of the religious bigot, hate, and, divisiveness business.
Frankly, I'd like to see non-religious Boy Scout type groups open to all Americans.
-
You caller mentioned homophobia and religion in the Boy Scouts being a problem. A friend working with the Girl Scouts mentioned to me that the Mormon Church took control of the national Boy Scouts a couple decades back, and that intolerance has increased. She said the Girl Scouts are not controlled by the Mormon Church, and are a far more open minded and tolerant organization.
In effect, the Mormon Church has politicized the Boy Scouts. It may be a pipe dream, but it would be good for this country to eliminate tax breaks for religious organizations that act in the political realm.
-
Have we forgotten the plethora of news articles and sensationalism in the late 70s and early 80s when young adult women were finally speaking out about the sexual abuse they suffered as children? Do you remember that the women were accused of creating those memories and there were no lawsuits against the perpetrators of those heinous crimes, most of whom were family members. What is the message we are sending here? Men who have been abused by men are entitled to monetary damages and women no doubt made up their stories of abuse.
We are all still homophobic. These cases of adult men preying on boy children seems to have raised a lot more outrage than did the cases of adult men preying on girl children. I surmise from this that the population as a whole cannot deal with male on male abuse, but questions and dismisses male on female abuse.
I speak from personal experience. There was no one who believed me, in fact people asked me "well, did you enjoy it?" "what did you do to bring the attention on yourself?" My experience was not unique. After 3 years of therapy I was able to put that aside, but I was never able to sue the perpetrators.
When are we going to stop suing each other at the drop of a hat and get the help we need as a community and as individuals to move past the iniquities perpetrated against each other? Litigation does nothing to heal the wounds.
-
I was in the cub scouts for less then a year in the 1980's
I was kicked out when it became clear that I did not believe in god and would not be easily converted. It think that the scouts put far too much emphasis on their moral and religious mandate. They let their stereotypes guide their policy's IE: if we keep out the godless homosexuals out how could we have the same troubles as the world at large.
I think the scouts do some good. But at the same time they train boys to be close minded and myopic.
-
When I was growing up in Ohio during the late 70's-80's, it was common knowledge that the Boy Scouts of America were aware of leaders malesting youth and continued letting those pedophiles lead.
The youth seemed to be the most aware, resulting in my male peers not wanting anything to do with the boyscouts and putting a label of "victim" on those that did join.
Raising my son in Oregon, I have seekd alternative cooperative ways to have my son connect with his community and nature.
-
I went through Cub Scouts, Webelos, and started into Boy Scouts and I had no problems with sex or other type of abuse. I had a good experience overall. But maybe that was because my mom was the Cub Scout and Webelos Den Mother, and my dad was the Scout Troop leader.
Clean it up, Boy Scouts organization!
-
By the time I was a junior in high school I had been in girl scouts for 9 years. All I had learned was how to sell cookies, push paper and realize that I was significantly poorer than the rest of the girls in my troop. I switched to an Explorer post that was attached to a Boy Scout troop. I ended up leading a patrol of 12 -14 year old boys and 4 other girls. Other than learning how to deal with the stench of preteen boys I learned rock climbing, caving, knots, first aid ect. More importantly when I lead the patrol through Phillmont I learned team work and leadership in ways that still influence my understanding and interactions with others. Even though our troop had a “retired” scout master who would not leave the troop and made the female scouts lives ridiculously harder than necessary (we had to pitch our tent in a puddle one outing to be “away from the boys” per his orders) I would not trade what I experienced or learned. While I hope the scouts continue to learn from this and become more transparent in their dealings, I hope they survive this to encourage other kids to learn practical skills and leadership.
-
In the mid 1940's I was a Cub Scout, that experence got me interested in becoming a Forest Ranger. However, when it became time to graduate to the BOy Scouts I found out that it was strictly a Christian orgnization, no Jews need apply.
I was so hurt by that I turned as far away from Forest Ranger as I could and became interested in Astronomy and space travel. Science Fiction became almost all that I read. I eventially became a Math Aide working of the Gemini & Apollo programs. After that I became a professional portrait photographer and then in 1988 a salesman, which wasn't what I wanted to do; but, I didn't know what else I did want to do.
It wasn't until recently that I realized that, way to late, I still wanted to be a Forest Ranger. If I had been allowed to become a Boy Scout I might have had a more satisfactory life.
-
No organization that attempts to train and shape a mind in a specific, predetermined and rigid way does any good at all. The BSA teaches boys 'what' to think, not 'how' to think. It is nothing but an extension of religion.
-
I wonder if they ought to include women as Scout Leaders or co-Scout Leaders, because there are some tremendous women leaders who come out of the Girl Scouts programs and I have been privileged to know a few of them.
My bet would be that Girl Scout trained leaders would not put up with any nonsense, would be themselves familiar with what sexual approaches look like and how to recognize them and reject them.
And extending that, I'd bet that the Catholic and other Christian Churches would benefit from women leaders in all positions of leadership, even to include Popes and whatever Protestant churches call their equivalent top leaders, like Bishop of Canterbury, etc.
-
I'm concerned about a comment made by your guest that the pedophiles in the Boy Scouts see their relationships with the boys as romantic . . . "just like heterosexuals." This will simply add "evidence" to those who confuse pedophilia with homosexuality. They are certainly not the same thing -- any more than pedophilia and heterosexuality are the same thing.
-
Since the military has pretty much integrated women into all of their ranks, and the Boy Scouts are considered a feeder program into the military, I wonder if the Boy and Girl Scout programs ought to integrate their organizations and teach both sexes how to get along with each other in appropriate ways and work together on teams and projects.
I suspect that involving women would be very beneficial in moderating the Boys programs into helping the Boys more fully realize their potentials as co-equals in the world of adults and help to prevent the military problems at the same time.
-
I Write this as a formerly convicted sex offender (25 years ago, released since 1990)
Here is what I need to put out on record:
Kelly CLark is the example of the the PREDATOR of the new millennium!
(Predator: someone enriches themselves by exploiting a weakness, or source for personal profit and pleasure, at the expense of another.)
Would Kelly Clark be so "morally outraged" if a "formerly abused victim" approached him with a grievance about the MAN NEXT DOOR? (with the victim asking for $25,000, instead of millions from an international organization with deep pockets?)
IF Kelly Clark is so "morally outraged" about this "evil" - what's he doing with his 40% cut out of the millions this case will net him?
What victim of FORCEABLE ADULT RAPE gets anything LIKE one million, much less- multiple millions- form being a sexual victim AS AN ADULT which left them with physical as well as psychological damages?
How many countless hundreds of thousands of men have passed through the turbulence of later adolescence (drugs, drunkeness, self -destructive behaviors) who were NEVER sexually "assaulted" when young, before maturing and stabilizing?
If you (the Scout program) have ALREADY CHANGED their procedures and behaviors, then trying to sue for past behaviors, now already changed is a PREDATORY legal abuse- uniquely American.
You know that society never hears from someone with my background, : WHEN YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM MULTIPLE PERSPECTIVES AND BACKGROUNDS, the result is a distorted, one -sided "mono" reality.EXample: throughout history, sex between adults and children (boys) was a frequent "rite of passage,"- never talked about, but also simply NOT a "big deal," esepcially if the activity occurred in an affectionate, non-coercive setting. SO what's now made it a "Big deal?"
MONEY. MONEY makes MAGNITUDE.
Walter Jeremy
IF the points I've raised here do not address the issue of the Boy Scouts, then perhaps you'd consider a future show on LITIGATION, A UNIQUELY AMERICAN SOCIAL PHENOMENA Who gets the "pay-offs?" and --- who "pays?" (Answer: who "pays" is way more than the person or institution being litigated against. It's ALL OF US- making for a paranoid society. It's the ultimate result of the "me first" thinking- the INDIVIDUAL "wins" (in a specific case) and everybody else- looses. -
Thank for taking my call earlier (Jim). I did want to clarify here what I said about the psychology of the children, because I didn't mean victims rights. What I meant was, how do we overcome those massive obstacles that prevent kids from bringing the issue to their parents or peers? The taboo of homosexuality in the Scouts (again, not trying to stir up that debate but it is undoubtedly a factor peer-to-peer) only fuels this fear and makes it even less probable that the victims will come forward. Toss the confusion of puberty into the mix and you have a recipe for repressed silence.
And yes, I agree completely with Patrick, the molestors do see this as a romantic tender love. I experienced that firsthand and I can tell you that it was indeed an eerie seduction. And I strongly believe he expereinced a sense of "lover's betraryl" when he was finally uncovered by one of his victims.
-
Your guest, Patrick Boyle, made statements that have prompted me to write:
. . . victims who, generally, went along with the abuse . . .
. . . they (perpetrators) seduced their victims; they didn't force them to have sex . . .Is this what your guest would have said to HIS son, standing with a betrayed heart and tear stained check - that after all, he "went along" with the abuse - he wasn't "forced" to have sex, he was simply "seduced"? Seriously?
. . . (perpetrator's) generally view these relationships as romantic, or at least playful, much as heterosexuals do . . .
Okay, don't know about your guest, but most of the heterosexual adults I know DO NOT have sex with children, playful or otherwise.
Our society has decided that sex with children is legally wrong. Most of us find it morally repugnant. I think your guest may have been seduced by the dark side - there may be good reasons he chooses to so closely identify with the perspective of the abuser.
Either way, Mr. Boyle's remarks appear insenstive, hurtful and dismissive to the survivors of childhood sexual abuse.
/crone 13
-
I gained greatly by being a Boy Scout. I was a Boy Scout in the 1970s. Likewise in my adulthood, I was an assistant Scout Master in the 1980's. As a scout leader I was also a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints( Mormons).
Mormonism runs its Scouting programs as a Priesthood function-- Scout leaders are called by the Bishop. In Mormonism a man does not just decide to become a Scout Leader-- rather the Bishop has to choose the Scout Leader-- by divine revelation.
When I was serving in my calling as a Scout Leader, a Mormon Leader who also was a Scout Leader in a neighboring Mormon Ward, was discovered to be sexually molesting Boy Scouts. The Bishop of that Ward thought at first that he should call this Scout Leader to REPENTANCE ( not turn him in to the Law). This only lead to repeat offences-- this leader was eventually turned in to Law Enforcement-- and convicted. This trying to give an offender a second chance is an unusual cultural attitude of Mormonism. This second chance likely would not happen in a Baptist or other Protestant Church that sponsors Scouting. Mormons have an unusual view about people doing wrongful acts. Mormonism teaches that wrongful acts (sins) should be repented of and the person should be put back to the test to see if the sinful action can be overcome. This has to do with the Mormon beliefs about humans striving toward perfection. In Mormonism it is believed that we humans are placed on Earth to experience and over come temptations and sins.
This means Mormons would have a tendency NOT to ban an abuser from Scouting- But rather have the offender "REPENT" and be retested in an attempt to overcome the sin of being a child abuser.
In a Protestant Church, the offender would be banned immediately and likely turned in to the Law, never to in charge of children ever again. In Protestant Churches even though it is believed that God can forgive a sex offender, it is also believed that wrongful acts (sins) have a consequence-- and privileges, social standing, leadership positions can be forever lost for certain kinds of wrong doing.
This means that in Mormonism their can be a cultural tendency for the offence as in this case to happen somewhat more often, than with other Boy Scout Troop sponsors.
-
"175! The greatest troop alive!" This was a cheer that I shouted many times as a Boy Scout in Eugene from 1988-95. Today I'm a Catholic priest. Coincidently, yesterday my father and I were speaking of Troop 175 and the scout master's fidelity to Scout policy about interaction between minors and leaders. Scout Master "Doc" McCready always slept in his own one-man tent and no leader ever slept in the same tent as a youth. One summer during a 3-week trip one of the youth celebrated his 18th birthday. As I understand it, an extra tent had been carried for the first part of the trip unused. On the youth's 18th birthday, despite grumblings, the youth had to move into his own tent because he "was now an adult."
I only caught the tail end of the program but I appreciated Patrick Boyle's commentary, particularly his final comments about the role of parents. More importantly, I am reminded of the fantastic example of due diligence of my Scout Master Dr. Tom McCready. May I be as faithful as he in carrying out my duties.
-
this is very difficult for me. I was a member of a Boy Scout troop in the Portland area during the mid 60's. It may have been one of the oldest troops in OR. We had an assistant troop master who was clearly interested in boys. He was a single man, never married as far as I knew. He came into my life when I was about 12 (I am 60 now). This man was very looked up to by the other scouts. There was a weekly swim at a local motels indoor swimming pool. I think that there was a 10 or 15 cent charge for each of us to swim. I guess it was about an hour or so, but we dived and swam and horsed around and when it was all over we went to the shower room to get the pool water off and the assistant scout master would give towel rub downs. They were great!!!
There were a group of us boys that became a sub group of the troop, I guess. We gathered at his house, went on field trips to the coast and hikes up the Columbia River gorge. All of it quite wholesome. He also took a lot of photos. He would have slide shows at his home, he had a wonderful collection of classical music which he would play as he showed
slides of mountains and other places he had been.
But there was one thing very unique about this man, which he never talked about...during WW2 he had been captured at the Battle of the Bulge. He had a number tatooed on his arm.
This man taught me a lot. About nature, how to read a map, appreciation for classical music.
And he informed my parents that I needed to have my vision checked.
But he really liked to look at naked boys/men. and he wanted to see me erect as a 13yr old boy.
Now at 60 I have my problems and I would like to lay them at his feet. But I can't. He was kind and gentle and listened when my parents were angry and judgemental.
I really loved him
but then I ran into him many years after I had moved away. It was in a museum and he did not recognize me after some 25-30 years. I told him my name and he rememberd but then went after his persecuters saying he was innocent in his taking pictures of naked boys.
I had thought about going to visit him is his retirement community but did not. I am pretty sure he has passed from this world and wish him peace.
-
Thank you for this story, BOb49er. It's a story about the America of the past, an innocent, naive America, one before polarized politics, Rusch Linbaugh -style cynics and social predators on FOX TV as role models to get people pissed off with righteous rage, metal detectors in schools, junk foods and fat, diabetic kids who have abandoned outdoor boyhood to closet themselves with video games, facebook, and "tweeting" but- ah, they're not being molested any more like they used to- so think how much "safer" they are and what kind of adults they'll become.
Believe it, Jim loved you too. But your boyhood existed in an America that's gone forever, and won't ever return again.
Walter J. (I'm 71, by the way....)
-
Comments are now closed.
Years ago, I participated in the Cub Scouts (the 'farm team' for the Boy Scouts. I left after two years, once I discovered that certain principles of the BSA (Boy Scouts of America) conflicted with my personal sensibilities.
If their view of America is one that allows them to be homophobic and bigoted while allowing child sex abusers to serve as Den, Pack, and Troop Leaders, then that is NOT an America I want any part of.
My view of (and my hope for) America is that we be a nation and a society that not only tolerates, but accepts and indeed celebrates our diversities -- ALL of our diversities, whether our diversities are racial, faith-based, sexual orientation, gender identity, or national origin.
"What parallels — and what differences — do you see between this story and the ongoing scandal in the Catholic church?" I see many parallels between the two cases...considering that the Defendant named in the case referenced above has admitted to assaulting 17 victims. Regular listeners to NPR have heard over the last decade numerous reports (mostly filed by Barbara Bradley Hagerty) of the pedophile priests who have largely been shielded by the Roman Catholic Church.
I guess when it comes down to it, I don't have much use for either organized religion or the BSA, when things such as this come to light.