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Last month Oregon joined a class action lawsuit against a for-profit college, the University of Phoenix. The suit is an attempt by Oregon's Attorney General and State Treasurer to recover $10 million for losses in the Oregon Public Retirement Fund due to the school’s alleged misrepresentations to investors and other fraudulent practices. The University of Phoenix's parent company, the Apollo Group, saw its stock plummet by nearly 50 percent between October 2009 and August this year.
Though the scope of the state's lawsuit is narrowly focused on recovering investment losses, it comes when pressure is mounting (pdf) at the federal level to tighten regulations on for-profit higher ed institutions' financial, recruiting and marketing practices. Last Thursday, the U.S. Department of Education issued new rules to strengthen federal student financial aid programs to protect students and taxpayers. The rules put an emphasis on for-profit institutions by highlighting their rapid growth of enrollment, debt load and default rates in recent years, which were factors that prompted the Obama administration to seek regulatory overhaul.
For-profit colleges may have taken a public relations hit lately, but for many Americans, they are a non-traditional opportunity for higher education that might otherwise be unattainable. According to the U.S. Department of Education, students at for-profit institutions represent 11 percent of all higher education students, 26 percent of all student loans and 43 percent of all loan defaulters. The median federal student loan debt carried by students earning associate degrees at for-profit institutions was $14,000, while the majority of students at community colleges do not borrow. More than a quarter of for-profit institutions receive 80 percent of their revenues from taxpayer financed federal student aid.
Have you attended a for-profit college? Have you been a teacher at one? Are you a shareholder of a for-profit higher ed company? What is your experience like?
Tagged as: college · education · for-profit · lawsuit
Photo credit: Plentiful / Creative Commons
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I'd like to know how for-profits compare to public and private universities on the following points:
1) The percentage of grads who found positions in their fields.
2) The average time it took for grads to find psoitions in their fields.
3) The average debt-load of grads.
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for profit colleges are like the lottery .. they victimize the weak minded >. if u libs want to be consistant u would oppose both
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But Libertarians are for the "Freedom" and the "Liberty" to victimize the weak without any interference for the government, so why would those "libs" oppose them?
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The educational/ teacher union complex is threatened by "for profit" schools. It's noteworthy but not a surprise that so many Attorneys General have signed on to a class action lawsuit. The establishment has to protect their own.
Wouldn't it be nice when tax-payer funded schools fail to meet parents expectation they got a law suit for return of the monies instead of being rewarded with increased funding!
If the AGs prevail, you can bet any monies received are NOT going to pay off those poor student's delinquent loans. They're going to go into PERS and nationwide PERS equivalents.
Teacher unions are right to be concerned. Online education can be had at dimes on the dollar. You cut out the middle management, you don't have to go through a metal detector, theres no risk of being bullied by some gang banger with his underwear showing. The educational/ teacher union complex does not compete/survive by quality of outcome and innovation but by passing laws to keep it funded.
In direct response to VITALPAC:
Actually the lottery becomes rational to play when the expected payoff is greater than the expected loss. Even though the probability of winning doesn't change, the expected payoff changes as the pot increases or decreases. With the huge Powerball payoffs sometimes at 200 plus million, the expected payoff can be a positive number and therefore a rational bet. Not to mention the economic utility you might get from buying a ticket. It's relatively cheap and you have the right to fantasize about being rich for a moment. In that regards it's just like voting. It's relatively easy and cheap to vote. By taking the time to vote you get the right to fantasize that your vote will have some impact on policy. I only mention this because it's Election Day. -
So your solution is to eliminate the Department of Education and maintain the status quo at For Profit Colleges?
Sen. Harkin, Iowa, released a report on For Profit Colleges at the end of September and it found that...
Students at for-profit colleges leave without a diploma at an alarming rate:
- Out of 16 for-profit schools analyzed, 57% (546,749) of the students who entered school between July ‘08 and June ‘09 have already left the schools. In total these schools have lost 1.9 million students in the past three years.
The vast majority of students at for-profits are left with significant loan debt:- More than 95% of students at two-year for-profit schools and 93% at four-year for-profit schools took out student loans in 2007.
- Only 16.6% of students attending community colleges took out loans during the same time period. At four-year public schools the borrowing rate was 44.3%, still half the rate of four-year for-profit colleges.
For-profit schools mask high withdrawal rates by aggressively recruiting and enrolling new students:- In 2008-09, one school started the year with an enrollment of 71,246 and ended the year with an enrollment of 89,479. However, the school added 120,638 new students over the course of that year. Recruiters had to enroll 120,000 new students to increase enrollment by 18,000 for the following year.
Despite these dismal student success rates, for-profit institutions are raking in record profits:- For the 16 companies analyzed, profits in 2009 totaled $2.7 billion. Between FY2009 and 2010, one company more than doubled its profits from $119 million to $241 million, while a second went from $235 million to $411 million.
These “profits” are largely made up of the taxpayer dollars intended to support student success:- Across 14 schools, federal dollars total 87 percent of 2009 revenues and ranged from 93 percent of revenues to 85 percent of revenues.
http://help.senate.gov/newsroom/press/release/?id=aafe9170-4785-44e7-a270-d142e94c64a8
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I've been thinking about the number of kids in the public colleges who quit or flunk out before they graduate. They have spent a lot of money with the state and most likely incurred a lot of debt.
I'd like to see some sort of requirement that they be counseled before they are let go, to help them sort out their next move. Talk to them about Union Trades Apprenticeships, business schools, manufacturing skills, operating construction equipment, aircraft mechanics or pilots, auto sales, and any other opportunity that might interest them.
I suspect that too many kids leave the college they started in and then just sort of wander around lost for a while. I think that the fact that the college took their money places some responsibility on the college to make an effort to redirect them into something other than a college degree where they can learn some skills and be contributing members of society.
Those kids have made a start, just in the wrong race for them, and they ought to be redirected while they are in the mood to run. Don't let 'em give up, keep them going in another direction.
And I wonder how much of that freshman money is almost like "Profit" to the college and is used to help finance the classes for the kids who do stay in school.
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I've been thinking about the number of kids in the public colleges who quit or flunk out before they graduate. They have spent a lot of money with the state and most likely incurred a lot of debt. -- Tom D Ford — Mon Nov. 1st 11:41a.m.
Actually, Tom, some of us (myself included) are non-traditional students returning to school more than 15 years after high school who are required to take refreshers of courses we studied in high school (Algebra, for example) in order to get to the higher mathematics (Calculus, which I seriously doubt I'll Ever use) required for our degree programs, only to run out of money (or student loans) and thus have to drop out of school with our degrees unfinished and owing over $50,000 in student loans that we have no hope of being able to repay due to the dismal economy.
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"(Calculus, which I seriously doubt I'll Ever use)"
Hi PFE, if you're like me, you probably won't... I too was a non-traditional student a few years ago... I never did find a position in my field, I found something better. Calculus and all the other advanced math I slogged through taught me how to approach, comprehend and solve complex abstract problems. My technical degree was simply a way to get my foot in the door... from there I worked my buns off and followed the path with the best opportunites.
It's not easy, it's hard(!)... but testing ourselves against hard things is how we grow... you're a smart person, you can do it too.
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What is the purpose of higher education? To earn a degree that will get you a job, or to become a well-rounded individual capable of reasoning and thinking on your feet? The above and more.
Rethomas asks great questions.
I received an IT degree in 1985 and recall conversations with professors along the following lines. Professors left university to earn more money and to keep their skills from becoming obsolete. Professors were disheartened by the university's inadequate computer science curriculum. The university used antique technology compared to the tools available in the technology industry.
In 1985 my university didn't have enough instructors or hardware required to educate students to the level sought by technology employers. The best and brightest students were recruited for technology jobs while many students ended up in jobs and careers different from their areas of study.
I bring my past experience and skepticism forward. I'd be circumspect to pay a for-profit college for a degree unless there were some guarantee of suitable job placement within a certain time frame upon graduation. Of course it would be my responsibility to complete the program successfully and be employable.
With technical jobs effectively disappearing from the U.S., it seems risky to take on excessive debt with the hope that a job will exist for you when you graduate.
When I worked as an IT technologist, I interviewed numerous people who did not display an appropriate attitude or attention to detail. They may have graduated with a technical degree but too often they were unable to use their education to solve real-world problems.
The chicken-and-egg problem. You can't think on your feet until you gain experience with the tools. You won't get to use the tools unless you get the job. If you have no experience or suitable credentials you won't get the job.
In my case I taught myself as I worked. I solved real world problems on the fly. When I finally decided to find a new job I ran into problems because I did not possess professional certifications sought by many employers. My career experience did not matter to employers who could hire someone whose resume said they had the sought-after skills.
In retrospect I might have been better served if I had quit my job sooner to find one that offered me time and opportunity to pursue formal professional technical education.
Getting the degree is one aspect of finding a technical job. To keep a technical job one must continue learning new skills throughout their career.
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In a way the goal of so many aspects of our educational system is to increase the economic potential of the student. It is not simply an investment in your future, it is more accurately an investment in your financial future. Perhaps, this is not as crass as it sounds. Perhaps, it falls under teaching one how to live, or teaching one how to have a good life, and it just so happens that money is a required component for a successful life. But, that life’s success is still being defined economically. It is hard to escape the notion that much of, even, not-for-profit education has the end goal of profit, perhaps not in itself, but through its students.
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I teach at University of Phoenix and at Portland State University, so I have the opportunity to compare for-profit education with traditional education from the viewpoint of a professor.
In every class I teach at both schools, I ask students what they want to do when they get out. In comparable classes, most students at PSU have specific career paths they intend to pursue. At Phoenix, fewer than half of my students have specific career plans. Many say they are in college to advance in their current job, but almost as many respond “to get the piece of paper,” “to finish something unfinished in my life,” or “I have no idea.” This troubles me as an educator. It is the responsibility of the student to have goals and aspirations, not the responsibility of admissions staff, so you can’t fault Phoenix for this. Nonetheless, I suspect students will not do as well graduating from Phoenix as similar students graduating from PSU.
Phoenix is what a colleague called an “open enrollment university,” and I frequently see students who would not do well at a traditional university but will do very well in the Phoenix model.
Comparable classes at University of Phoenix have less instruction time than PSU. Phoenix uses a 5 week term instead of 10 weeks (at PSU), both with 4 hours of instruction per week. This means instructors have to cover the same material, frequently from the same textbook, with half the instruction time. It is difficult to get the same depth of treatment in classes with fewer instruction hours. Comparable classes cover the same topics, but the quality of education cannot rise as high as it would with more instruction hours.
Because they attract students who cannot go to traditional universities, I sometimes (privately) refer to Phoenix as “University of Lowest Common Denominator.”
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Bill, I am a writer doing some work on for-profit higher ed. (I used to work for U.S. News & World Report; I'm now with the Kauffman Foundation). Would you be willing to talk to me about your experience teaching in both environments? If so, please contact me at bwildavsky@kauffman.org. Thanks, Ben Wildavsky
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The American Dream is being dismembered piecemeal. Owning a home is a ball and chain--smart folks rent. The Stockmarket is in the toilet. Savings accounts do not pay enough interest over a year to buy a latte. Health care benefits are getting scarce. Credit is difficult to obtain. Getting a job is harder than getting into a lesser Ivy League University. And now the value of a college education may not be worth the paperwork.
The Class of 2006 has experienced the Education Bubble first hand. When they first enrolled, the economy was humming, unemployment under 5%, jobs were plentiful and even English majors could get a job with benefits with a little pavement pounding. Many thought they could make a mint before they were 30 yo and retire early. However after the Great Recession of 2008, the Financial Bubble, the Foreclosure Crisis and Record Unemployment approaching 25% for young people, THE DREAM WENT UP IN SMOKE.
Instead of Wall Street Boutique Hedge Funds, the largest private employer of recent graduates of Yale, Stanford, Michigan and Duke are working for $35,000 teaching in Ghetto and Slum schools in the worst cities in America, in Teach for America. And they were the lucky ones selected from a huge pool of America's best minds.
Jobs are rare for graduates. They are living in their childhood bedroom with the racecar bed and Easy Bake Oven playing the newest video game and facebooking. They are adult parasites and the umbilical cord has been reconnected.
Imagine if you are a union worker, been in a stable job for 30 years, own your own home near city center, two cars, occasional vacation to Florida or Mexico, raised 3 kids, sent them to college despite only having a high school education. And life is still a struggle and has been getting worse.
However YOUR children will need not just a BA but a graduate degree and will less likely to achieve your level of wealth. They will be grateful to achieve your American Dream but they may never own a home or be able to afford 3 children in college.
At this time, the best prospect for a young person may be to ride the Marijuana Boom, become an entrepreneur, and have a large illegal grow house for the $5000/ plant pot bounty. Proposition 19 in California will provide a legal basis. But you don't have to be Nostrodamus to see a Marijuana Bubble rapidly peaking.
Better to study critical disciplines that would lead to work in a Global Economy: Science, Engineering, Accounting, Entrepreneurship and Chinese. Stress Problem-Solving Skills. What we have been doing up until now is NOT working.
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Like many things, I have a strong feeling about for-profit education, but I can’t entirely pinpoint why I developed that feeling, or what the reasoning is. So I am trying to work backwards, on something my brain already decided, to come up with the justification as to why I think for-profit education is a bad idea. But, so far, I have only done the opposite!
We often think of public and not-for-profit education as being democratic and equitable. But, in some ways, or on some levels, it isn’t. The admissions process, may mean the most qualified candidates, or the best educated students get accepted, but it doesn’t mean everyone can. What about someone who wants something badly even though they might not have the grades to meet the criteria for admittance? There are probably many people who just don’t try hard enough, and if they decide they want to try, maybe they should be given the chance. The assumptions of merit should ideally occur while you are actually taking the course, rather then being denied entry in the first place. For instance, what if I did poorly at school because of a personal crisis and can’t get accepted to a university because of my grades, but potentially might do very well in the subject. In ways, merit based admittance is only equitable if you think the smartest people on paper should be the only ones to get the chance. Structured education can be formulaic and authoritarian, and sometimes it seems like for-profit education has the potential to lessen this.
I feel a higher education is not, or should not, simply be the means to a high paying job. That education in itself is useful and necessary. But, even not-for-profit schools don’t entirely march to this drummer, much of the process is about metrics and grades, not just learning in the hope that you will be a better person for it. Parts of education are a competitive and judgemental process where you are rated against others. Ideally grades and test scores should be more useful to the student to guide their progress, rather then as a sign to the outside world whether someone makes the cut or is good enough. The fact that degrees are issued at all is a sign that the structure of most educational systems is about more then just an education, or at least that the education is meant to lead to something else.
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I attended DeVry back in 1996, my reasons for choosing that school was simply because I screwed around too much in high school and didn't perform to my ability, and passing the entrace exam at DeVry was better than trying to have to work through a lower GPA because of being a teenager. Out of the ~80 students who started with me, I was one of under twenty who graduated with a Bachelor of Science three years later(no summer break).
I likely wouldn't recommend many people go to a for profit school such as this because they are expensive, and tend to front load easy classes for the first year or so, then pile on very difficult classes which force people to fail and have to retake them, or drop out altogther. Fortunately, I had the ability and applied myself when it was time to do so - and even had the desire to take additional classes to help focus my education on what I wanted to and have been doing since, which is software engineering.
Sadly, the DeVry/UoPhoenix name is slightly tarnished in the real world, and I saw some push back once people learned where my degree came from. But experience wins out in the end and I no longer have to defend my choice.
Was it expensive? Yes, it was.
Was it educational? In my experience, yes - both from a scholastic standpoint and from a world view experience, with seeing so many people attempt, and fail something that was difficult then to give up as soon as they had the chance.
Would I send my child to a for-profit school? No.
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My friend attended the University of Phoenix and was unable to complete his degree because the majority of his classwork was to be completed as a group assignment. This is hard in a classroom setting, let alone over the internet. He was unable to get his degree because he could not complete the group assignments, and now has a huge student load debt.
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UOPhoenix ripped me off by droping the program I was in and changing it to a online class with out telling me and sticking me in another program with out me knowing, When I found out they still tried to make me pay for classes I did not want/need to take and only stoped when I threatened to sue and go to the media. Not to mention most of the classes I did take would not transfer to a real school.You are better going to a state school for a more legitimate degree at a less expensive price
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I enrolled in a PhD program with a for-profit University, Capella. I have no problem with the curriculum or the institution, both of which I though were of good quality. My current concern is with the balance of my student loans. I began my program while I was working and my company paid some of the tuition. I was eventually downsized and continued my studies paying full tuition. I stopped before completing my dissertation because I realized I needed to focus on making some money and realized I couldn't continue to pay tuition.
I am currently semi-retired and have a somewhat limited income, most of which consists of Social Security and a pension. I also work in an independent consulting capacity by teaching English to non-native speakers and working as a writing coach for another for-profit college. I still have a huge balance on my loans, eventhough I pay regular monthly payments of $400. Are there any opportunities for having those debts relieved in some way? All the focus seems to be on younger studentss with these loans, not those of us who are 60+. I believe the loans I have are Stafford Loans administered through the College recommended lending bank.
Thanks,
Pat
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I think the real problem with for-profit colleges lies in the enrollment process. I attended what was once known as Western Business College in my twenties and found a great disconnect between the admissions office and the school.
I met with an admissions officer to simply get information on the school, but was pressured into signing up with phrases like "what are you afraid of?" and "don't you deserve more?"
Within 2 hours of my "informational meeting" I had enrolled in classes and signed away for several thousand dollars in loans (which I am still paying off 10 years later). Years later, when I attended a 4 year university, the experience was completely different. The enrollment process was slow and methodical. The financial aid process was complicated and required a lot more paperwork on my part.
In retrospect, I was given very little time to consider the commitment I was making both in terms of my finances and my education. And most frustratingly, I was never informed that my credits would not be transferable.
In my experience, for-profit colleges are the used car salesman of education system. They will absolutely sell you a lemon if you are not careful.
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I live in Portland, and I'm applying for the University of Phoenix for the MAT in education at the secondary level (high school). Upon completing my degree, will I then be just as competetive when applying for teaching positions as an applicant from a traditional university? Thank you.
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Jason--see my note below.
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Jason: contact local school districts where you may be applying for a teaching position. Ask if they hire U of Phoenix graduates. How many they hire. That may provide a little bit of information. Also, I agree with OldEd. Do some comparison shopping with other colleges/universities in the greater Portland area. You have choices.
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These "institutions" are totally ghetto.
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It would be interesting to see the stock prospectus that the Apollo Group sends out to potential stock investors. And also to read and hear their stock sales pitches.
I wonder what the financial mags have written about for profit colleges, Forbes, Fortune, Worth, etc. They usually interview the managers of Corporations like the Apollo Group to find out their business strategies and then publish those strategies for stock investors.
And I'd like to hear what Warren Buffett and George Soros think about it, both of them are pretty straight talkers.
In other words find out the business side of these for profits and compare that with the students ideas and experiences.
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Sorry I'm getting to this discussion late (I work in Corvallis during the week and am unable to listen to Think Out Loud then). But I wanted to respond to this, since I recently read an article by the investment columnist Malcolm Barko who I feel has a lot of good advice, although I'm not sure I agree with what he wrote about for-profit colleges).
What he wrote was that for-profit colleges are a great investment and recommended the person who wrote to him, and others, invest in them. He said they educate students for a fraction of the per-student cost of not-for-profit or state colleges. He said the not-for-profit, traditional university model is way too expensive and outmoded for these times, and that nowadays everyone should go to a for-profit college because they teach so much more efficiently.
But after reading through these comments, I see how they achieve their efficiencies, and that's at the cost of some of the quality of instruction.
Fortunately my husband, who recently had to go back to school to change careers, was able to get into the pharmacy tech program at Clark College, which was excellent, and very affordable, and didn't have to go to Appollo or Western College, both of which were offering that program at the same time. Employers liked hiring pharmacy technicians out of the program, and he found a job soon after graduation.
I'm going to listen to the show online now.
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I worked in admissions/financial assistance offices for several non-profit (public and private) colleges throughout my higher education career. My experience with recruiters from the for-profit sector was mixed. Some were professionals. Too many were recruiting as many potential students as possible as they (recruiters) received bonuses for each student recruited. Consequently, some applied heavy pressure to potential student and family members, playing upon the naivite of those folks. An example of the sales was: 'The programis filling quickly. You must pay a non-refundable deposit to ensure your spot in this class." Then, when the potential student found a similar program in a state institution at half the cost, the student could not obtain a refund.
For-profit institutions are filling a need. However, the general rule of thumb is that classes and degrees do not transfer to public institutions in the manner the student wants. If you believe you will ever transfer to a public college/university to further your education, you need to contact any of those institutions and inquire if and how for-profit credits/degree transfer. Your credits may be recognized, but only for elective credits.
Comparison shopping before enrolling is the best way to protect yourself. Check with admissions offices and comparable academic programs. Attend financial assistance workshops that public institutions present.
The beginning of questions to ask:
1. Do you accept credits from (fill in the blank) for-profit school? How do the credits transfer?
2. If I have an associate's degree from (fill in the blank institution), how will the credits transfer if I wish to complete a bachelor's degree at your institution? The same applies for students completing a bachelor's degree and wishing to pursue a graduate degree.
3. How long does it take graduates to find a job in the particular field after graduation? Do they find jobs in the field? What is the employment outlook for this particular field?
4. What is the average debt of your graduates?
This will hopefully help someone select the right college/university and reduce some heartburn and/or unexpected and negative consequences.
There are experts in the field who do not charge for the answers. Beware of folks who charge to help you find a college. (another show)
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My husband's daughter is now buried in debt she accrued through the University of Phoenix. She had a two-year degree in nursing, and she wanted to get a better job by having a four-year degree. She finished, but she's buried in debt, and she has no better job because many hospitals in her state seem to consider for-profit degrees to be second-rate. She's very bitter about her experience. Once she was in too far to get out, they changed classes and employed practices that made her accrue more debt than she would at a private or state-run university. They were always there with easy access to student loans. She recently told us that she fears that she will be paying on her student loan for the rest of her life. Caveat emptor.
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Jason--Have you checked with the non-profit schools in Portland? Several offer an MAT in evening formats. Be SURE to compare costs, and then go talk to a school principal or two. Ask them how they would look at a new teacher from U Phoenix versus, say, George Fox, or PSU.
There are some great alternatives out there; don't make a choice without knowing all the implications!
PS: If you have some credits from a for-profit, take your transcript to some of the non-profit degree-completion programs in town. Some will count many or even all toward your bachelor degree.
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I work at a for "profit college" here in Portland, Oregon our demographics are targeted to low-income students who do not have either their high school diploma or not educated in making a decision for their education. We target these potential students as we know we can paint a picture that their lives will change if they come to our school. We dummy down the curriculm so much. 48% of our student population is on the honor role yet they cannot do a thing. I have so many stories of our students who graduate who cannot even attach their resume to an email to apply for a job! It sickens me on a daily basis!
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Nice to know everyone's got a price.
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As an instructor at a for profit school I was required to graduate 98% of the students in my class in order to maintain my employment. When confronted with students who didn't have the ability to learn the material (i.e language barriers and overall mental capacity) I was instructed by my superiors to give credit for effort not performance.
During a time when jobs are hard to come by, staff also become victims of for profit schools. I refused to do what the school asked of me and was lucky to secure a job with a respectable employer, so I didn't have to sacrifice my integrity to pay my bills. But I worked with so many people who had to try to make the best of it and/or chose to ignore it.
I have no doubt in my mind that for profit education is unethical. In the end, the dollar interferes with the most important issue: students getting an education that will enable them to find gainful employment, resulting in the ability to pay off their loans and support themselves.
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It used to be that the idea of college was to get a liberal arts education, to educate well rounded and informed citizens, because that is what our form of democratic republic needs to function properly.
This idea of educating people just to be valuable workers and managers is new and I believe to be wrong-headed.
Way back when, my mother got a degree in home economics at OSU, the idea of "home ec" being to help build families and be a contributing participant in her community. A college degree just to be a better person and citizen.
Now we have this conservative idea of only valuing people for their ability to create monetary value for the wealthy who hire them.
It's nutty.
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It's so sad to hear that there are some fraudulent cases happening in school we know that most schools is non profit organization such as public education so we are deemed to protect its reputation as well as its financial capability. Maybe there is a need for the Obama administration to implement a student aid program to alleviate the suffering of those who find it hard to afford for their educational expenses.
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Comments are now closed.
I attended BCTI (Business Computer Training Institute) in Tukwila, WA back in 1989-90, and have bad memories of it. I would encourage anyone who is thinking of attending ANY for-profit school to think long and hard about it.