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Friday marks the last day of two weeks of the international climate change meeting that's now become known by the city in which it's being held: Copenhagen. Whereas there is broad international scientific consensus that climate change is spurred on by human activity, it seems the consensus ends there.
Before the conference even began, expectations were firmly tamped down. During the course of the conference there were frequent — sometimes violent — protests and reports released about the costs of combatting climate change, as well as its relentless progression. There does appear to be an agreement on the role of forests in managing climate change, but a broader international treaty is not expected to materialize.
What were you hoping or expecting would come out of the UN climate change summit? What's your take away from Copenhagen? Were you motivated to take any action locally because of what you heard about the summit? What are you personally doing — or not doing — to combat climate change?
GUESTS:
- Robert McClure: Senior environmental correspondent and co-founder of InvestigateWest
- Ron Mitchell: Political science professor at the University of Oregon
- Kristen Sheeren: Executive director of Economics for Equity and the Envirnonment, an affiliate of EcoTrust
- Reuben Plantico: Environmental policy director for Portland General Electric
Tagged as: climate change · copenhagen · environment
Photo credit: Mandy {Relic Imagery} / Creative Commons
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It's on! What's your take on the Copenhagen summit? Do the talks give you any hope?
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I firmly believe that we all need and should have clean water, air and soil. Let's return to fighting pollution. I think it's arrogant to think we can "control" weather. One good volcano will change anything we can do. The climate has been changing since the beginning of the world. We can work on the effects but I don't believe we can control the climate. I also find it hard to take anything seriously coming from a group that uses private transportation. How many used commercial jets? Used public transportation? Walked? Biked?
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Ahhh... Well you see I'm a skeptic and “Climategate” is tilting the balance. Add in “Follow the money” and I think that things are right about where they should be.
That said Climate is all ways changing Are "we" the cause? The science needed to prove this is perhaps irrevocably damaged by its generators. There must be real science performed out in the public forum and it must be peer reviewed not crony reviewed.
Copenhagen is not about AGW it is about power.We should stop polluting, we should not destroy the progress we as a species have made to do it.
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My daughter and a dozen other young people from Oregon have been at the Copenhagen Conference along with 3,000 young people from aroud the world to urge world leaders to take action to mitigate the disaster they and their children will experience. You should have them tell their story on your program.
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We'd love to talk to them for a future show. But in the meantime, can you give us a sense for what you've heard from your daughter?
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My daughter, a sophomore at OSU, has also been at the conference for two weeks as a representative of the Sierra Club. I've skyped with her daily and have watched her mood move from one of hope to one of desolation and cynicism - about the process and about the commitment of her own country.
Jim Swenson
Portland
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I often hear commentators talk about saving the planet, the planet will go on for millions of years till it gets too close to the sun. What is at risk is that we will make the enviroment poisonous to our species, it is our surival that is at a crossroads.
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For me, I still have hopes that our world leaders will recognize the chance we have here. We have a chance for humanity to make a stand for this and future generations.
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It is sad, isn't it? No matter what you think, how skeptical you are, it does seem like many of the Copenhagen attendees are motivated by a sense of good. And their kind of good does seem to be rooted in science rather then faith. So, it is largely an evidenced based good---even if you believe the evidence is inaccurate or misinterpreted, at least they have it. But, we still seem unwilling to take action---a collective game of chicken! Aren't we sick of ourselves?
Besides our normal partisan and nationalistic absurdities, it is hard to blame us really, at least on this issue, considering everything else we do as a species, it seems to be expected. Perhaps, our laziness to act on climate change is even more likely to be expected, because as we discussed on the Al Gore show, the issue of the end of the planet is quite a bit larger then things we normally discuss---it is also a distant fear, that is hard to get our silly heads around. We can't get one lame Joe Lieberman to stop acting like a brat so all the American people can have the fundamental service of health care---it is not hard to wonder why we can't get the world to want to save its future self. I think we quite frankly don't give a damn.
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Having studied climate science since the 1970s, and having lived in Canada and seen firsthand the consequences in the far north, I have no doubt the world is facing a massive problem, yet listening to this show, I'm having a massive problem taking the conversation seriously. The environmental community has spent several decades trying to legislate change. Kristin Sheeran and many others are very good at proclaiming all that we have to do, but I find myself shutting down when she starts talking, not because I disagree with her, but because everything I see, and everything I've ever studied about the past (I'm a historian) suggests that her approach is not how societies actually change. I hate to sound like a disciple of Stewart Brand, but I wonder whether we would be further along the path if Sheeran and company spent less time trying to legislate and more time building that non-carbon grid. For better and worse, this is a country and culture built on entrepreneurial energies, not policy.
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Is history that narrow, just do, just put in the work, and they will come? There are surely many events in history where people did just that, but weren't successful, so we don't hear about them. We are more likely to hear about the ones that succeeded. As much as I realize, if people just built the grid, it would be great, but it seems like an unrealistic challenge. I assume that entrepreneurial energies are what got us into this mess in the first place. Besides, there are zillions of things we as individuals have access to, in stores, at auto dealers and others, that we are not willing to pay the extra costs for.
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"For better and worse, this is a country and culture built on entrepreneurial energies, not policy."
It has been this countries "policy" to "direct" "entrepreneurial energies" in certain directions and we can "redirect" what we have previously "directed".
There is a great old business slogan that: "Failure to plan is planning to fail".
We just need to change our plans.
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Solution, solution, solution.
Just exactly, what is the solution?
Eliminate Carbon based energy and replace it with what?
Reduce the world’s population, who stops reproducing?
Eliminate unnecessary Carbon emissions? Ground all commercial and private aircraft eliminate recreational travel, stop trans oceanic shipments of anything (including food), eliminate movies, sports, eliminate all non-foot powered transportation, eliminate Carbon based food production, etc, etc.
Carbon offsets will not work and giving money to whoever won’t do it as it takes carbon to make money, I doubt rolling civilization back to medieval levels will do it.
The world when asked wants to be America, therefore again, I ask:
What exactly is the solution?
How will it impact my life?
Seriously!! What is the solution? -
There is an article in the November 2009 Scientific American magazine that details how to do it, "A path To Sustainable Energy by 2030". We can do it with 100% Wind, Water, and Solar and eliminate all fossil fuels.
That is at least one set of solutions, check it out, then you won't be so Desolate.
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One should also keep in mind that there are a lot of very powerful interests at work who greatly benefit from NO agreement coming out of Copenhagen: oil industry, oil-producing countries, coal companies, power utilities -- world wide. Since UN rules require near unanimous consent, it is very easy to quietly sew seeds of dissent among the parties to scuttle any agreement with no fingerprints left behind.
Jim Swenson
Portland
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Cap and trade is designed to be a corrupt system.
How can there be a "leader" when a definitive corrective system has not yet been designed. 100 blind assumptions for corrective measures do not present a method of addressing climate change.
No carbon = no economy. Who is going to agree to that?
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9:50 am and they just took the first call.
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some days the in-studio panels carry the show. THis is a very good call-in show.
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I wish we'd been able to put more calls on today, but the fact is we only got a handful of them to begin with. And we're careful to screen all of our calls to make sure that they take our conversation in a new or meaningful direction. We never put calls on just for the sake of puttng a call on.
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It seems clear to me that the project of getting the world to reduce its carbon emissions is somewhere between extremely difficult and hopeless.
But what about the other side of the carbon cycle? What about increasing the rate at which CO2 is taken out of the atmosphere? What about things like fertilizing parts of the ocean with soluble iron? Doing that vastly increases the rate of plankton growth, and plankton pull CO2 out of the ocean and sequester it in their calcium carbonate skeletons
Why aren't we researching things like this as fast as we can?
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This isn't about saving the planet, it'll take care of itself. Earth has survived far more catastrophic events than this. This is about saving people of which there are far too many. Even if we could bring climate change to a complete stop, it wouldn't stop some eventual mitigation of our ballooning population (e.g. disease, famine). Humanity will be just fine, there will just be fewer of us.
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Should they not try? What is the planet without people? They are the world, aren't they? Our species thinly spread out over a longer period of time---or a big orgy all at once? Is there much of a difference?
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Agree completely. Folks should note that the 14th century's "Black Death", in significantly reducing the population of Europe, is credited (in part) with ushering in the Renaissance as it helped break the iron grip of the feudal system. Perhaps we should be welcoming global warming as an opportunity... if we don't reduce our numbers, the planet will do it for us.
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Of course it warrants an effort, if for no other reason than to provide a clean place to live for all of us. All I'm saying is to keep perspective. Populations inflate and deflate over time, and the greater we inflate ours, the more catastrophic the mitigating event. Humanity isn't going anyware, it's numbers are just going to be put check and unfortunately this will weigh far more heavily on the underprivledged.
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It is odd, this camp that keeps harping on about population control, I can't figure out what they are up too. Many of us realize overpopulation is a problem, but I am not sure what people are suggesting we do about it. To be fair, I guess they are not saying we kill anyone existing? Just limit the future population to a select few.
Kind of ironic though, trying to save the species or this planet by suggesting we get rid of half of it. What's it all for then in the end? A longer movie with a smaller audience? At least we keep going! Trudging along as a species at our preferred temperature. Our 'less is more,' more or less. What is the species exactly? Not much, without me around to bitch about it. My teensy world ends when my light goes out---as it does for everyone else.
I think if we blamed all our climate change woes on EVOLUTION it would make everyone happy, the ultimate scapegoat. It should satiate the Republicans and the Democrats. The Republicans could agree to accept a theory they don't believe in, by saying it exists but it ain't working out too well. And, the Democrats can be happy that diplomacy led to the consensus that evolution is real, and because of its overwhelming popularity, we overpopulated the planet with people and pollution which created climate change, that in the end, will reverse all the achievements of evolution, by wiping us out---a real win-win!
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I'm not suggesting that humanity self-regulates, I'm suggesting that all populations regardless of species self regulate based on the resources available to them in their environment. As populations grow, resources shrink. Eventually the resources will be insufficient to sustain the population, and thus the population begins to decline. It follows that, as we overpopulate the planet, eventually (and this is already happening in many places) resources become scarce, and populations begin to regualte. It's naive and idealistic to think that we can do much about it. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to make the world a better place, just don't act all suprised when, in spite of our efforts, the s**t still hits the fan.
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There is an article in the November 2009 Scientific American magazine that details how to do it, "A path To Sustainable Energy by 2030". We can do it with 100% Wind, Water, and Solar and eliminate all fossil fuels.
It is not a matter of huge expense, it is a matter of redirecting our subsidies away from fossil fuels to Wind, Waves, and Solar.
We need scientists and engineers to help us plan and manage the energy markets and turn them around. The "Free Market" created the problem and it is definitely not the answer to fix the problem.
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What is the carbon foot print to 100% convert just the US transportation system from Carbon to electric?
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The "Free Market" created the problem and it is definitely not the answer to fix the problem.
If you think that the "free market" is not the answer, what's your proposal? Do you think that this country is likely to agree to run its economy in some other way?
It seems to me that you're adding an insoluble political problem on top of figuring out what to do with regard to global warming.
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"If you think that the "free market" is not the answer, what's your proposal? Do you think that this country is likely to agree to run its economy in some other way?"
There never has been a "Free Market", the markets have always been managed to someones benefit and most recently to the benefit of the fossil fuels owners and operators. It is quite simply a matter of changing and managing the markets to a different set of goals.
I always get a laugh out of the "Free Market" ideology, because it is really just like the mythological Unicorn, it does not now and never has existed.
If you doubt me read "The Prize" by Daniel Yergin, about the history of Oil, and all the wars that have been fought for it and the other corrupt non-free market shenanigans committed for it.
"Free market", yow! What a howler, ha ha ha!
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There never has been a "Free Market", ...
I don't agree. But let's leave that aside.
I'm saying that convincing America to turn away from free market capitalism is politically impossible. It's not going to happen.
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MichaelTrigoboff,
Oh, the virtues of the 'free-market.' The only truth about the free-market, it ain't free! It's a nice name though, isn't it? Nice ring to it. Ring. Ring. Bit hollow though.... The free-market is the dollar store of economics, charming place to shop, if you want a bunch of crap. Of course, the free market, has it's virtues, but as a concept it has no inherent good and bad---garbage in, garbage out. Unfortunately, there is too much garbage out there, for everything to be coming up roses. It is naive to suggest the free-market will automatically fix things, by definition it doesn't have that capacity. The free-market is like a sewing machine, you can make a pretty dress if you have a nice pattern, nice fabric and a good sewer---if you don't, then good luck producing a Vivienne Westwood by just turning the machine on.
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"What is the carbon foot print to 100% convert just the US transportation system from Carbon to electric?
Desolation — Fri Dec. 18th 10:07a.m."
Let me counter that with: "What is the carbon footprint of not converting to clean energy?"
And I suggest that the mission is to change an awful lot of our economy while some parts like our military will continue burning fossil fuels in some of our long term investments like trucks, ships, and aircraft.
Work the percentages, don't try for the extremes like 100%. In other words be realistic, use commonsense. -
Oh, the virtues of the 'free-market.'...
All I'm saying is that it is not politically possible to change this country away from the free market.
My larger point is that it's a distraction from thinking about things that might actually be effective. You want to do something about global warming and significantly alter (or eliminate?) the free market? It's ambitious, I'll grant you, but I don't see any force developing that could accomplish even one of those, to say nothing of both.
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MichaelTrigoboff,
I certainly am not proposing we get rid of the free-market. It just needs to be legislated so it doesn't destroy itself, the human species and perhaps planet earth in the process. The free-market is already legislated and is meant to follow the laws of the land. We just need laws to guide ('force' if you want) the free-market to curb climate change. I guess that is asking for a lot, but, well, that is the point of it! As humans, life is kinda, all we got going for us at the moment. Who could ask for anything more...? No, not Toyota, you and me, us!
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I suspect that the "Climategate" leak had a significant impact on the Copenhagen conference.
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The warmers are simply wrong. The sceintists and the many who trusted them. Many blindly and willingly as the opportunity to grasp the fraud has been around for years.
Today's collective debunking and exposed wrongdoing could not be clearer unless Al Gore himself was caught on tape making up tall tales. Oh but he has.
What a waste of activism, young people, money and effort.
There will need to be severe consequences for those who perpetrated this fraud.
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The climate change issue became the global concern of most sectors, several bills and awareness programs had been conducted. Did you know that the cap and dividend bill might work, but then again it might not. The idea, similar to cap and trade, is that permits for carbon emissions have to purchased by manufacturers and other industries, and that money will be diverted, 30% going to research for reducing global warming (hopefully) by reducing carbon emissions, and the rest will go straight back to the consumers in the form of a dividends check. Now, the idea of everyone getting a couple of payday loans worth per year is nice, but that's going to get eaten up by increased cost of goods and services.
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