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Cutting School

AIR DATE: Thursday, December 18th 2008
Download the mp3 for this show.

Is a shortened school year the best response to a budget shortfall?

Jon Cohen suggested a show two weeks ago about the length of school days in Portland Public Schools:

The Portland Public School District has the shortest teaching day of all but one other school district in the state. Why are Portland students receiving less teacher time? The district is currently negotiating a new contract with the Portland Association of Teachers and teaching time is a major issue. Shouldn't teaching time be uniform throughout the state? And as Portland schools, particularly high schools, struggle to provide the best education options for our students, the shorter teaching day is limiting options. And as Portland competes for new business opportunities, it should be able to show that its schools are on par with competing cities.

Given the latest budget news, we thought we'd expand the conversation to include not just shorter school days, but shorter school years -- something that districts around the state are now considering.

Cutting class days in response to budget shortfalls isn't new to this state. Oregon schools made national news back in 2003 when they cut significant chunks out of the end of the school year; Hillsboro alone lopped off more than three and a half weeks. And while students don't seem to mind, nobody else is happy: parents demand more instruction time, and teachers, administrators, and bus drivers draw smaller paychecks. But when even drastic cuts to supplies won't make a significant difference, when districts have already limited field trips, when PE or music or art have been stripped or eliminated, where else can districts turn to save money?

If you're a parent, do you share Jon Cohen's frustration? If you're an administrator, where does tinkering with school days fit into your arsenal of cost-cutting measures? What particular difficulties are you facing this year -- and what are you expecting next year? (And where do this week's snow days fit into your plan?) If you're a teacher, would you be willing to work fewer -- but longer -- days for the same pay? What's in store for students, given that a white knight for school budgets doesn't seem to be waiting in the wings?

The big question many districts are facing now, or will be facing next year:

How do you decide between cutting days, which results in fewer hours of instruction, and cutting teachers, which results in larger classes?
David Miller —
An article about a Brookings Institution report that found longer math classes were more helpful than more classes:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-12-10-math-class-time_N.htm
David Miller —
If taxpayers are serious about wanting better education for kids those same taxpayers will simply have to be willing to step up to the plate and pay for it. So far, that's not happening in Oregon. "No taxes!" seems to be Oregon's universal cry. At the same time, those same taxpayers are crying about the low level of education in the state. You can't have both at the same time.
--
Angus MacL
Angus MacL —
Seriously, no taxes, but we want to keep as many people in prison as possible and dedicate what few taxes we're willing to pay toward keeping them there, rather than educating them so they aren't as likely to end up in prison.

Perhaps if we simply made it illegal to be under 18 and over 3 with a sentence of education we might improve our education system.
hazeladd —

Furloughs for the exempt workers in state, local and county government needs to be considered.

Here is an example.
http://www.herald-mail.com/?cmd=displaystory&story_id=212511&format=html

We are being taxed without enough representation at the school board level.
echothig —
A few thoughts. There are no "one" solutions that fits everyone. What works for High School will probably not work for 1st grade...
(sorry, it seemed the computer sent my message on it's own before I was done... Here is the rest)

How much of the budget is "open" to public examination? Do we know where the districts spend the money? Just one example:

I live in Salem fairly close to where the busses are parked. I can not believe how many there are for a city of this size! Maybe it isn't a statistically good sample, but 90% of the time when I do see a school bus on the road, there are less than 5 students on the bus... Where I came from, students who took the bus to school had to pay for it. Can the public see the budget in detail and know where their tax money is going?

Bob
Bob88salem —
Doesn't it still come back to putting public education on the forefront and providing consistent funding source(s) via taxes etc.? Then we can stop all the end runs? Best for students is absolutely more days, appropriate day length, managed class size. As a parent and masters candidate for teaching credential, we need to stop the stop gaps and commit to the basic education principles that we all know will serve students and the future of Oregon.
CarolineL —
school cost cutting? Very easy, look to Singapore (has vastly higher test scores)

1/2 the number of schools and teachers and buses required !
1) Each school / teacher has a class of 50 students from 7AM to 12, then another 50 students from 1PM to 6 PM

Option 2
More parents will be unemployed = more home schoolers / or parent helpers in school plus more time to spend with kids at home doing remedial assistance

Option 3
more fully utilize higher level students to mentor younger. (As home schoolers we worked as a family as daily volunteers in the public schools)

When our kids went to college in grade 10, they were asked to be tutors to adults. This is very beneficial to get away from age segregation.

coming from a family of many generations of teachers, I see many options, it would be great for educators to 'think out of the box'...
jwswamp —
Do you also advocate for some of the practices that make it possible for Singapore teachers to have a class of 50 students like corporal punishment in the class? And changing the economy of the state of Oregon so that everyone is solidly middle or upper class? Comparing teaching 50 students in Singapore to 50 students in the US is silly if one doesn't also make the other changes.
hazeladd —
Sure, Corporal punishment worked well for me! (I only had to get one swat to learn), but by the time I got home my mom was waiting for me with significantly worse consequences. (which is what happens in Singapore and many places around the world today, including US DoD schools, where the parents WILL suffer the results of their kids misbehavior in school). There is really no reason US students should NOT be expected to sit through a class without disrupting. In the US it would be as simple as "you don't behave, you don't attend". My kids knew their alternative was 'Dairy Farm Boarding School'. Something about the thought of milking at 5AM and 5PM 7 days / week kept them straight. ;-) (it's a great 'before and after school program')

I know a lot of Singapore nationals, and their economic status is no better than the average OR resident, usually worse... but that doesn't result in a different edu experience for their kids. It is really an enviable system with equality to all (as is their medical). Yes, LOTS more rules, but... lots more freedom for living in a peaceful and non-death-threatening environment. After all, they do rank #2 in 'world happiness index', even while melding major people groups / religions / economic differences. My US friends who used Singapore public schools for their kids didn't have to pay a cent for their subsequent 'Full-ride' scholarships at US Ivy leagues, after their kids aced the SAT and ACT. That proved to be a $500k benefit for the whole family.

Don't cut the school schedule, but there is plenty of room to improve the delivery of education. (With NO need for additional funding or resources.... probably less !)
jwswamp —
Why should breaks be either or? Why not divide the in-school days into four equal blocks and space them evenly throughout the year with shorter but significant summer/winter/spring/fall breaks?
katied —
Further thoughts --with four evenly divided quarters, you could get creative about how you structure each quarter, especially in the upper grades -- like having fewer students do more intensive study in one area - So one student might have winter be their hard science quarter and spring be their humanities quarter while another has winter for arts and spring for soft science, etc.
katied —
As an aside, Emily you have done more to promote the discussion of education in this state in the past 6 months than any legislator. Thank you for consistently furthering this topic. I am sure you have found that there is some consensus on the school level-teachers, parents etc. How can we move forward for solutions? When will the state take real action?
CarolineL —
Snow removal and passable roads are a function of local budgets and the topography of where the school is located.

Property tax alone does not cover the people who rent, who are from out of the country working for companies.

Larger corporations are not carrying their fare share of school support.
echothig —
1. Schools are funded largely through income tax, not property tax.
2. Property tax covers renters as their landlords pay property tax which is typically a cost they recover in rent.
3. Do you really propose taxing people outside of the US? I don't think that one is enforceable. However, foreign workers in the US DO pay income taxes in the US.
hazeladd —
It varies according to districts. I'm looking at my property tax bill on my home:
Multhnomah ESD
Portland Comm College
Portland School District
Portland Public School LOC OP

My total eduction taxs, nearly 1/3 of my tax bill.

Have a look at your property tax bill and see where your money is going!
echothig —
Have a look at your income tax return and see where your money is going!

Ha Ha. You are looking at the wrong thing. Your property tax bill tells you very little where education get their funding from. Even if 100% of your property taxes went to schools wouldn't prevent schools getting most of their funding elsewhere.

Everyone needs to live within a budget and spend money wisely, especially schools. What is stupid is that the Fed govt. can borrow infinite money while state govt. must balance their budget every year. Given that, the state needs to do a lot better in regards to a rainy day fund.
Bob88salem —
Schools dont keep us safe - Blackwater does.

I say cut out school completley and put that money in Iraq.
Chad Balcom —
Here's a prime example of an undereducated, pap-fed, parrot-puppet 'sheeple'. G. W. B. would be ever so proud! "Mission Accomplished" indeed!
Angus MacL —
Or a guy making a joke.
David Miller —
The major problem I have with that sort of joke is that there are too many people who believe exactly what Chad Balcom said, whether jokingly or seriously. Regardless of whether Mr. Balcom's post was a joke or not, it represents a serious problem in this country.
Angus MacL —
That too many people may believe the likely sarcastic comment is why sarcasm is important - it points out how stupid that mentality is.
hazeladd —
I think that the overall question we should be asking is "how do we define the role of schools (Pre K, & K-12) in our community?" For many children school is a safe, warm place for meals and social, community and health care. What happens to those kids who do not have healthy alternatives at home when school is cut short because of budget - or even weather, for that matter?
If we are clear about what purpose the schools serve - it will help steer decisions that are made and if we are without resources to meet those needs, bring to light the places where we need to focus what we do have for these children.
kim sepdx —
School is for educating not parenting, bring in other social organizations to address the social and physiological and physical needs, I want education not a home for the kids.
echothig —
One idea I've not heard is eliminating the state income tax exemption for dependent children for more than two kids. Large families put the greatest burden on the school system, but they do not contribute enough to the funding to educate students. If we phased in the change over a period of 18 years, parents could plan families accordingly and the schools would receive more money to lengthen the school year.
ideaman —
I'm opposed to cutting the Academic School year, but during budget crunches I am FOR cutting the entertainment portion of the year...especially at the Elementary level. To explain...Usually the last two weeks of Elementary School is taken up with parties, movie days, sleep-overs, field-days, entertainment field trips and picnics. I think it's inappropriate to pay for all the staff hours and transportation costs related to these activities when money is tight.
tomrobson —
Here! Here! But don't blame just the district, the parents who constantly insist on hovering around the class and watching over their kids adds to distractions and the party mentality.
echothig —
Hi!I'm not blaming anybody. This practice has been a tradition since I was in elementary...and I'm 59!
tomrobson —
having parents involved with class is about teaching parents how to parent . It isn't about party time.
Michael Onstad —
Based on my observations teachers are the last group I need advise from on parenting, they barely know how to teach let alone parent.
echothig —
Perhaps if you parented your children so they have the required respect for their teachers so your kids actually learn, the teachers might be better able to teach your kids.
hazeladd —
I thought I heard the union president say that the reason the union didn't want to cut days was because at this time it was not justified. I also heard the Superintendent say they've got $400,000 saved, so why would you cut student learning days when you are also saying we need to extend the school year?
tomfromseaside —
Several comments,
i live in Vale OR, "the part of Oregon that is really in Idaho."

My kids attend school in the Harper School district, maybe not the smallest distrct in the state, but surely in the 10 smallest. For a number of years they have been on a 4 day a week schedule. In this rural district, this of course means a 20% reduction in transportation costs.

i remember from years past districts discussing Year Around School. Instead of a 3 month summer vacation, this would give a larger break every quarter.

i have been corresponding with a teacher in Cebu, Philippines, and i am currently planninng my vacation time to correspond with their Summer Break, which is April and May. This is a break for students, but not necessarily for the Teachers, who are still expected to report to work during the break. (There is obviously a slow-down on the teacher's work load...) In addition to a longer school year in the Philippines, High School Graduation occurs in Grade 10, rather than Gr 12, which is the standard here.
pakrat1963 —
There are alternatives to cutting the school year. It will take an investigative research to come up with a resolution between the schools districts, teacher unions and last but not least the public. I taught in North County San Diego in the 80's and before I moved to Oregon they adopted successfully a year round schedule. (Same amount of instruction time but, vacation sessions during times of year when adverse weather occurs) It was implemented slowly, first primary grades and then the secondary grades. It was approximately 2- 3 years before it was functioning with normalacy. I stress, it was a cooperative effort, allowing for public input, careful dialogue with teacher unions and school staff. I have been and advocate for year round school year for as long as I have been in Oregon. Quality instruction time can be saved without putting stress on the budgets.
ayerhere —
The kids don?t go to school enough as it is!
Why cut more days?
RIDICULOUS!
mccartns —
Uh, I think it has something to do with there is an economic downturn, tax revenue is not going to be as high as previously forecasts, and budgets need to be cut. Another words, reality that there is not an infinite amount of money available for education and every other state program.

I thought the discussion was originally about a longer school day but fewer days, with the result kids would be going to school the same number of hours but with less expense. Any idea of improving education with a lower cost should be considered, there are almost always positive and negative side effects of any change. Perhaps late day baby-sitters would be hurt by a longer school day.

Bob
Bob88salem —
School should be for education not parenting, yes, but the state suffers from bad parenting and pays big for it. Teachers need development time because people who don't understand what happens in the classroom mandate things that obstruct the teachers attempts to educate and change lables to make it look like they are doing something then blame teachers when it doesn't work. If you want better education, let teachers teach.
Michael Onstad —
Academic days need to be longer and the Department of Education needs to be dissolved with a legal change requiring 65% of all funds to be spent for teacher and aid compensation.

Oregon Department of Administrative Services (DAS) should provide fiscal, bond, construction and purchasing services for larger outlays.
Oxygen —
There is much discussion about altering the school year, however I think there should be serious consideration for a "YEAR-ROUND" model throughout the state. I was surprised that it didn't come up on your show today. (perhaps it could be a topic on its own...)

As an educator I initially bristled at the thought of teaching through the summer. My students hate the idea. (I think that the reaction is to the semantics of the term "year-round".) Initially what I didn't recognize about that model is that it has the same requirements for class hours per year, but the time away from school is broken up periodically throughout the year, instead of in one major block called Summer Vacation.

The year-round model still has a summer break (typically 4-6 weeks), followed by a 3-week break in mid-autumn, with another 3-weeks off over the winter holidays, and again for an extended 3-week spring break. This system allows for greater continuity of classroom instruction. Students have improved recall with shorter time away from school. The benefit of periodic breaks is reinvigorating for both students and staff.

I've never taught in that system, however I have 4 nephews who have thrived in that set-up, performing at much higher levels than they did in the traditional school year model. Their collective interest in school increased as well as their performance.

Their parents became quick converts as well. They adapted to the new schedule that allowed them greater flexibility for family trips throughout the school year. (As a side note: international travel, and airfare in general, is more economic in the mid fall and early spring. A benefit to families and teachers alike. This also provides greater opportunities for school related trips, whether abroad or domestic.) Every year there are parents who take their children out of school for extended trips for hunting/fishing/Disneyland/Hawaii/Mexico/etc. If we can change from our outdated, agrarian-based system they will have an opportunity to do all those things without compromising their childrens' education.

I'm certain that one of the deterrents to adopting this plan is extra-curricular sports. It is perceived that it would interfere with the seasonal play that has already been established.
Individual schools are reluctant to break away from that model. However, in reality the year-round school model can actually benefit sports teams by having breaks from academics in mid-season, allowing students to put their energy into sports. The dual responsibilities can be overwhelming for some students, with education often getting less attention.

Again, this could be topic on its own.
- Peter, Bend.

ps: for a highly successful 4-day model (as you discussed on your program today), I suggest you take a look at The Corbett School. The students thrive there. The faculty does too. Yes, the school day may be a little longer, however with Friday off students can find time to get homework or projects done prior to the weekend. It also give teachers time during the week to plan/grade/develop curriculum, without the distractions of classroom management.
zeligfilm —
What is considered the obvious for you may not be by the Office of Education.
My reply from yesterday:

There are alternatives to cutting the school year. It will take an investigative research to come up with a resolution between the schools districts, teacher unions and last but not least the public. I taught in North County San Diego in the 80's and before I moved to Oregon they adopted successfully a year round schedule. (Same amount of instruction time but, vacation sessions during times of year when adverse weather occurs) It was implemented slowly, first primary grades and then the secondary grades. It was approximately 2- 3 years before it was functioning with normalacy. I stress, it was a cooperative effort, allowing for public input, careful dialogue with teacher unions and school staff. I have been and advocate for year round school year for as long as I have been in Oregon. Quality instruction time can be saved without putting stress on the budgets.
ayerhere —
I think it is a mistake to assume that the only place where kids learn is in school-and that school is the most important place where kids learn. If a longer school day means less time for kids to pursue their own passions, whether it be dancing, playing with legos, or just spending more time outside, then it is a bad idea.
Belmont —

Comments are now closed.

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