SHARE THIS SHOW:
ON THE BLOG:
RELATED CONVERSATIONS:
RECENTLY ON TOL:
TOL Our Town
- A tumblr site dedicated to the people and places that make up Oregon and Southwest Washington.
TAGS:
The co-chairs of the Ways and Means committee released their budget Tuesday. This marks an important turning point for the 2011 legislative session. The budget still has to be passed by the House and Senate and approved by Governor Kitzhaber, but its release means many other bills that hang on budget issues can begin to move forward. The $14.6 billion spending plan would provide more money to schools than the one proposed by the governor earlier this year. However, the co-chairs say their budget would require cuts to all state programs.
Speaking of budget-related legislation, there's been a lot of talk this session about reducing Oregon's capital gains taxes. You may recall that this was a big issue in the race for governor last year. And it's certainly come up in previous sessions. This year, there seems to be at least some agreement about cutting taxes on capital gains, though legislators differ on exactly how much should be cut. Too steep a cut, some say, is not an option in an already tight budget. Cutting too little, it's argued, would not offer enough incentives for businesses to expand or start up here.
Believe it or not, the legislature does discuss issues that have nothing to do with money. This week, the House passed HCR 14, adopting 10 principles outlined in the "Code of the West" as a guideline for Oregonians to live by. The code comes from James P. Owen of the Center for Cowboy Ethics, and its concise instructions include "Be tough, but fair," "Know where to draw the line," and "Talk less and say more." The House voted 44 to 14 to adopt the resolution. It now moves to the Senate.
Our Capital People feature introduces interesting people who work in the Capitol building but are not elected officials. This week, it's Frankie Bell, who has worked in the Capitol since 1966. She's currently the Senate chamber receptionist. Frankie will share memories from a time when legislators didn't have individual offices and there was a lot more social interaction among lawmakers after work.
What would you like to ask someone who's worked in the Capitol for 45 years? What's your reaction to the co-chairs' budget? How would a reduction in capital gains taxes affect you? Do you plan to live by the Code of the West?
GUESTS:
- Richard Devlin: Oregon state representative (D-Tualitin) and co-chair of the Joint Ways and Means Committee
- Peter Buckley: Oregon state representative (D-Ashland) and co-chair of the Joint Ways and Means Committee
- Kevin Cameron: Oregon state representative (R-Salem) and House Republican Leader
- Phil Barnhart: Oregon state representative (D-Central Lane and Linn Counties) and co-chair of the House Revenue Committee
- Tim Freeman: Oregon state representative (R-Roseberg) and sponsor of HCR 14
- Frankie Bell: Senate Chamber Receptionist who has worked in the Capitol building since 1966
Tagged as: 2011 session · budget · cowboys · legislature · taxes
-
Thinking a little further... another alternative is to cap the income of the richest 1% (perhaps by income averaging).
-
Why not have an already existing "task force" assigned to examine how states that aren't in trouble are managing? YES there are some! What's wrong with looking at the successfully managing states to see how they do it???
-
Absolutely nothing wrong with that idea... the need for more research is obvious :-)
-
Kick up the Kicker.
-
Have at it, folks:
(1) Live each day with courage;
(2) Take pride in your work;
(3) Always finish what you start;
(4) Do what has to be done;
(5) Be tough, but fair;
(6) When you make a promise, keep it;
(7) Ride for the brand;
(8) Talk less, say more;
(9) Remember that some things are not for sale; and
(10) Know where to draw the line. -
- Tim Freeman: Oregon state representative (R-Roseberg) and sponsor of HCR 14
Oh, he says he wants to rewrite the history and ignore the downside. Obviously he is a Conservative.
-
"Do you plan to live by the Code of the West?"
Whatever happened to "Remember to wash behind your ears"? And "Keep your nose clean"? And all those old timey Ben Franklin sayings?
And they get paid to legislate that stuff?The idea of "cowboys" is a very highly idealized and romanticized thing. Those of us who have read the history of them have a far more realistic view.Sheep wars, indian wars, land grabs, rustling, "running iron" re-branding, etc.
And how about that great old movie "Shane", and others?
And I have spent time in a "line shack" out between Crane and Princeton, OR while re-roofing it and doing some repair carpentry. Those guys did some hard living and working for their rich corporate bosses.
I recommend the Louis L'Amour books for folks interested in what reviewers and historians call pretty realistic cowboy stories. And there are a lot of them. Tony Hillerman is great for modern day Native American stories.
Reub Long on the high desert.
Ok, that must be the line for now. ;)
-
Reub Long and his outfits rounded up wild horses by the thousands and had them slaughtered for "free" income. NOT a fan of the Legendary Reub. Once again the romance collides with the reality.
And don't forget about the water wars. As many if not more lives and fortunes were lost over water, and the lack of same, in the west as over cattle and sheep issues.
-
sunvalleysally
That was back when the invasive feral horses still were used for dog food. I'd like to see wild horse meat brought back into use for both human and dog food and allow the range to be reblanced towards the wildlife, the deer, antelope, sage hens, etc. That would be "wise use" of an invasive species.
-
Oh yeah and there is the idea of "cowboy" like Bush lying to Americans and wrecklessly conning us into that war on Iraq.
Cowboy as drunken wreckless obnoxious nutcase.
That's a big part of "Cowboy Ethics", in real life, the traditional Saturday night get drunk and fight.
-
sunvalleysally
Marilyn Monroe in the Misfits, what a great movie. I think I got that title right.
-
Yep. I actually had already figgered y'all for an ol' buddy of good ol' pro-slaughter Da**e D*quette. No surprise there, sadly.
-
Sally
I don't know who that is.
I consider myself a friend of the wildlife. Horses are cool, in their place, but their place is not in the wild, they just do not belong there.
And considering all those overly romanticized shows like "Cloud" and the other feral horse programs that only show the beauty of feral horses and completely ignore their downside effects on the deer, antelope, sage hens, and other wildlife that actually belong out there, well, I have no realistic hope that the problem of invasive feral horses will ever be addressed.
-
Oh yes, and there is a Horse Whisperer over by Prineville who knows far more about how to treat living beings than that "Wall Street Rexall Ranger", James P Owen.
-
Did Frankie ever consider working somewhere else? What does Frankie recommend that Oregon government do to get back on its feet? What will Frankie do when she stops working for the state? Thank you, Frankie, for your commitment to Oregon.
-
in our government, with our form of self rule, policy, to be legal, must be in the interest of the general public. policy that is in the interest of business profits at the expense of the people, such as NAFTA, is illegal.
all elected officials, including the city level, and the military take an oath regarding the US constitution. article ll section 4 states "The President, Vice President and all Civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."
the way power traverse our government, emanating from businesses with outrageous profits, through business associations, PACs and for-profit lobbyists, fund raisers to campaigns, along with instructions regarding official government policies and bypassing the interests of the people (like NAFTA does) shows that if we do not restore a government of, for and by the people, it is bound by corporate profits to always fail the people.
why debate the budget with this invisible 800 pound gorilla in control? no one in government will address this issue, because if they do, they will be targeted for removal, like alan grayson was, because as senator dick durban said "frankly, banks run congress."
it isn't just banks, it's the US chamber of commerce, the american petroleum institute, the world trade organization, but not the people.
that is why the pentagon can loose 1.1 trillion dollars in the year 2000, and 2.3 trillion in 2001 (announced by rumsfeld sept 10, incase anyone forgot) and not loose any funding, face any sanctions or investigations.
yet we are fighting to fund the suicide prevention hotline, head start, etc in portland OR because we have no money?
lets look at the rich running government policy and fix that, then everything will fall into place, correct? we are not a third world country, we can afford services for the working class and the working poor, but big oil, general electric, etc need to get out of paying their taxes and to receive tax payer subsidies?
shody
-
two santa clauses or how the republican party has conned america for thirty years
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0
american wealth disparity the bottom 50% have very little
http://blogs.alternet.org/grantlawrence/2010/04/10/mind-blowing-american-wealth-disparity-the-bottom-50-have-comparatively-nothing/
the 50% lowest of wage earners can't make ends meet, they don't understand the tremendous wealth that comprise the average earners, and the wealth that should be available to the public, or that that wealth is derived from their spending, even if all they can afford some gas and toothpaste (perhaps not enough for a place to live)
this way the rich can easily convince the enough of the public there is no money, and that everyone must tighten their belts.
GE, EXXON paid no U.S. income Tax in 2009 (they are people, according to the US Supreme Court)
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Tax/ge-exxon-paid-us-income-taxes-09/story?id=10300167
and we pay them subsidies too
and people should educate themselves about 2 economic theories, supply side (trickle down) and demand side (keynesian).
one main problem with the US economy is lack of demand which is caused by lack of jobs and low pay.
if money were injected to those below the 50% earning rate, through welfare or some other means, that could stimulate sales and production of goods and services. yet supply siders are promoting austerity, precisely what will exacerbate the economic downturn.
this continues to make obama look bad, which could help republicans/the superrich in the next election cycle.
shody
-
ONCE AGAIN I would respectfully call upon the Ways and Means Committees and other state agencies who are "in charge" of the money to take a very hard and thorough look at the FRAUD WASTE AND ABUSE which goes on in some agencies by some state workers. Specifically: you really REALLY need to make a thorough and deeply detailed investigation into the Oregon University System staff AND management. I'm sure by now the others who post here are thoroughly sick of hearing me beg for this but it needs to be said again and again until someone wakes up and DOES something about it: if what I directly have witnessed in just one agency is even a percentage of what goes on statewide, Oregon will never be able to bail itself out of its financial difficulties! There was and continues to be absolutely shameless stealing going on and it needs to be stopped. Oregon: if you REALLY want to balance the budget you need to do something about stopping illegal outflow as well as increasing inflow!!!
-
If they really wanted to even it out they need to crack down on the tax evaders who live in Vancouver.
-
I recently retired from a local high tech company. While there, I accumulated company stock which I will be selling to fund my retirement. My accountant advised me to move to Washington before I sell. I would save $100K. He was in the process of moving his business to Washington for capital gains reasons. I love Oregon, but I'm asking myself if it is worth that much more to live here?
-
Florida, Nevada and Texas are similar options... and warmer :-)
-
We should be raising the capital gains taxes, not lowering them.
Thirty some years of tax cuts for the wealthy is a root cause of our problems.
Reganomics is a Conservative mythological "unicorn"! It never has worked.
-
The extremely wealthy don't create jobs, they buy up small companies and consolidate them into giant corporations while firing the owner-managers and laying off workers for "efficiency". So giving them tax cuts is the wrong way to go.
-
Why does this idea that a tax break on capital gains would stimulate the economy keep coming up?
If you take economics 101, you learn that the marginal propensity to consume goes down drastically as income goes up. This directly conflicts the reaganomics trickle down false economics.
I agree with the caller who is responsible and pays their taxes and understand that they are receiving something in return for the taxes. The richest are the ones who get the greatest benefit from taxes, can afford it most, yet they complain the loudest.
Those individuals that would move to avoid taxes are NOT the kind of people that we as Oregonians want in the state anyway, let them leave. -
So we should just blindly pay our taxes without any consideration of government efficiency or even necessity?
Sorry, most of us are not sheep.
Even the most progressive of our Oregon politicians have recognized that the size of our state government has grown to an unsustainable level.
-
oldschool
I second your remarks.
-
I'm retired in Oregon and earn ~$45K/year from my saved investments. It's my own personal 'social security'. So not all people paying capital gains tax are 'rich'.
Presently I'm sitting on $200K of unrealized gains, however Oregon will not see any of that as I will simply move to Washington when it comes time to realize my gains. If there was a more reasonable tax of around 5% then maybe I would stay and realize it here. It's Oregon's loss all around. -
Rather than give businesses tax breaks in hopes that they will create jobs, is there or why isn't there a policy where the businesses would get the tax breaks the year in which they created the jobs, thereby giving the breaks to the businesses that do create the jobs in Oregon?
-
That's a good idea!
Create the job and then get the break, like Reagan said "Trust but verify." Provide the evidence.
And that's about the only thing the "Amiable Dunce" said that I agree with.
-
Thank you Lola, for your comment about your willingness to pay taxes and participate fully in our community of Portland OR USA Earth. Their are many options to avoid things we don't like, but participating fully is also my goal. I am not wealthy... living paycheck to paycheck with a family of three. I work hard to volunteer and have a positive impact as best I can. Gardening, biking, helping others.
Mostly, I would like to find a way to break all of the state given tax breaks. I believe one of your guests mentioned a federal concept of 100% tax against state tax breaks. lets get back to simple
Love,
Ben
-
Capital gains taxes are mostly paid by individuals, most of the companies in OR are not C corporations, so company capital gains flow through to the individuals.
As an owner of stock options and someone who actually understands how they work, I have no problem paying captial gains in Oregon. Most of the people who are paying tax on options are paying tax on options for large companies that are getting tax breaks from the state. Our schools and public services have to be funded somehow. If the company I or my spouse works for chooses not to pay their fair share in tax they are choosing to shift it to their employees.
Those that move out of the state are exacerbating the problem. Giving tax breaks to large companies is beginning of a downward spiral. Retirees moving out is the end of the spiral. What they don't understand is that the other states all have other ways of collecting funds. I love me State and can't ethically "take my money and run"
Thinking that lowering capital gains rates it going to change much is short term thinking.
-
Capital gains taxes are mostly paid by individuals, most of the companies in OR are not C corporations, so company capital gains flow through to the individuals.
As an owner of stock options and someone who actually understands how they work, I have no problem paying captial gains in Oregon. Most of the people who are paying tax on options are paying tax on options for large companies that are getting tax breaks from the state. Our schools and public services have to be funded somehow. If the company I or my spouse works for chooses not to pay their fair share in tax they are choosing to shift it to their employees.
Those that move out of the state are exacerbating the problem. Giving tax breaks to large companies is beginning of a downward spiral. Retirees moving out is the end of the spiral. What they don't understand is that the other states all have other ways of collecting funds. I love me State and can't ethically "take my money and run"
Thinking that lowering capital gains rates it going to change much is short term thinking.
-
Re: capital gains taxes. Many years ago, on the federal tax return, these were referred to as "unearned income". That described it well.
I have worked for a living for over 40 years. On the income I earn from my sweat and labor, I pay the 9% Oregon state income tax. I invest my wages back into the local economy as I spend my paycheck. That creates jobs while at the same time my income taxes pay for the public services that make for a civil society.
I have also had capital gains on my small investments. The feds tax me less than the equivalent income taxes on that. If I am getting away with a little, the wealthy get away with a lot by being taxed much lower by the feds on this "unearned income". Recently I had a $100,000 gain on a property I owned in New Jersey. I paid $9,000 in Oregon capital gains tax on this. I sat passively as my property increased in value over many years, and reaped $91,000 on a property that cost me about $15,000. How can I possibly complain about that? If I had earned it in wages, I would have paid the same tax. Why should passive, "unearned income" receive better treatment than my hard earned wages?
This cherry picking of taxes to claim rich people will threaten to move if we tax them is outrageous blackmail. And there is no evidence other than anecdotal to back that up. Studies by OPB and the Oregonnian over the years have shown that Oregon has among the lowest overall taxes on business, and low overall taxes on individuals. Yet that hasn't resulted in businesses and wealthy people flocking here.
Let's not capitulate to greed. We all live her together and should all pay our fair share to assure a just and civil society. That, as Lola said on air, is true patriotism. My parents' generation came back from WWII and taxed themsleves at much higher rates than we do now (corporate and individual) to build the national highway system, schools, and much more infrastructure that I and my boomer generation benefited from. Now we are leaving a wasteland for our children because of our greed and selfishness. Our parents should be ashamed of us.
-
paulkrissel
You get it.
-
In actuality it might be beneficial to Oregon if the richest 1% did move... while their taxes represent somewhere around 20-30% of the state's revenue, they also have the most volatile incomes so that in a downturn the state ends up with a large revenue gap. If they all left, the state would have to raise the lost revenue on the rest of us, but the revenue stream might be more stable.
-
rethomas
Hmm, eliminating the rich would bring stability. Well, I never thought of it that way but that is an interesting point.
-
Oregon (with no sales tax) draws affluent shoppers from other states, denying those other states needed sales tax revenues. Oregon has won the race to the bottom on sales tax. Yet some Oregonians accuse Washington State of racing to the bottom on income tax to attact affluent taxpayers who create Washington jobs, pay Washington property taxes, and pay Washington sales or use taxes. Do know-it-all Oregonians think all other states must compete on terms dictated by Oregon?
-
"Do know-it-all Oregonians think all other states must compete on terms dictated by Oregon?"
I suggest that the terms are dictated by the wealthy and they set the non-wealthy Americans against each other, state by state in the race to the bottom.
-
If the wealthy dictated terms in Oregon, would they burden themselves with the highest personal income tax in the Nation? I would guess many wealthy Oregonians would like to remain in Oregon, but they are being driven out of the state by an angry Oregon mob. How smart is it to drive away the Sugardaddy class?
-
Not smart at all.
Unfortuantely, there are a large number of voters that seem to be averse to having a real discussion about revenue AND spending.
Fact: The State of Oregon Biennial Budget has grown from $41 billion in 2005-07 to $61 billion in 2009-11 - a more than 49% increase in just 4 years.
Fact: Our 2 recent democrat governors, Kulongoski and Kitzhaber have admitted that the growth of state government has reached unsustainable levels.
In a perfect world, our representatives would be able to scale back the actual scope of state government. Unfortunately, rather than targetted cuts, about all that we can accomplish is accross the board cuts and attempts to restrict the growth of revenue. This is simply reality.
-
Alternative Ten Priciples To Live By:
1. Live each day with humily
2. Take pride in the relationships you build
3. Recognize that some projects don't deserve to be finished because they were bad ideas to begin with. Do this especially when the bad idea was yours.
4. Recognize that you don't always know what has to be done. Work cooperatively with others to build a common plan for action.
5. Be Compassionate and Fair
6. Recognize that you do not control a big enough chunk of this world to promise anything big. Be impeccably careful about your committments and keep them.
7. Never allow yourself to be branded, like an animal, but keep an open mind.
8. Talk less and Listen More.
9. Realize that a lot of things are for sale which should never be for sale and work to change that.
10. Recognize that "the line" is often different for different people and you are not always right.
I encourage others to construct their own (pro-life, pro-choice, hedonist, buddhist....) 10 Rules to demonstrate to our silly lawmakers that the ethical moral landscape in Oregon is a multiplicity, not a dumbed down cowboy unity. Our multiplicity is our strength.
Angela Zehava
-
azeha
Now that is a great, very thoughtful post.
-
Comments are now closed.
I'd like to ask the legislature by what means they plan to stabilize the fluctuations in state income?
I finally read an article:(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704604704576220491592684626.html) that explained the volatility and backed it with data. In essence and without taking sides, the more we tax the rich, the more volatility we get because the rich have volatile incomes.
So what are more stable sources of income that are "flatter" during downtimes?
Sales Taxes? Maybe, but folks will spend less in down times.
Property Taxes? Maybe, unless large deltas between value and assessment.
Fee's? Likely, if it's something everyone needs/does.
Gas Tax? Likely, massive conservation will have negative impact... and then the state can hike fee's on electrics (like Washington is proposing).
Other ideas?
The state should have data on what declines and what doesn't decline as much in down times... figure out what those are and tax them... couple that with a rainy-day fund and we might do a better job of getting thru the next one.