SHARE THIS SHOW:
ON THE BLOG:
RELATED CONVERSATIONS:
RECENTLY ON TOL:
TOL Our Town
- A tumblr site dedicated to the people and places that make up Oregon and Southwest Washington.
TAGS:
There's been plenty tossed around about taxes this election season. But have you heard this? A former commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service, Sheldon Cohen, once said:
"If you know the position a person takes on taxes, you can tell their whole philosophy. The tax code, once you get to know it, embodies all the essence of life: greed, politics, power, goodness and charity."
Taxes and spending are part of every election, but as voters consider which candidates and ballot measures to support or reject this time, Think Out Loud decided to turn the political subject of government revenue on its head. Today we ask: what real life experiences have helped shape the way you relate to the tax system? Who or what has affected the way you view the government raising revenue and spending it?
Taxes have provided grounds for debate throughout American history. The famed Boston Tea Party was in reaction to the British Crown giving tax breaks to the East India Company. The writer Henry Thoreau went to jail briefly in 1846 for tax evasion because he opposed the Spanish-American war. Three years later, Thoreau published his famous essay Civil Disobedience, which addresses the rights and duties of individuals to the government. Today, the Oregon Department of Revenue says (pdf) says that there is about a 20% gap between the amount of revenue the state collects and what it should collect.
What are the personal experiences that have affected your views on taxes and government spending? Were you influenced by a particular election? A specific person or event in your life? A career change? Starting a business? How does tax policy impact the way you vote?
Guests:
- Michael Hutchinson: Theater Technician in the Canby School District
- Don Moore: Small business owner in Portland
- Steven Beals: Small business owner in Portland
- Chuck Sheketoff: Executive Director of Oregon Center for Public Policy
- Gene Steuerle: Economist of The Urban Institute
Tagged as: government spending · sales tax · taxes
Photo credit: David Reber / Creative Commons
-
TOM
I dont think the tea party is supporrtive of either big business or unnecessary foreign involvement, even the old line GOP hate them for that reason. The problem is government itself .. it tends, like any organism , to seek its own survival and growth.
THE GOVERNMENT HAS BECOME>>. OF THE GOVERNMENT , FOR THE GOVERNMENT AND BY THE GOVERNMENT.
If you dont believe me > just see what happens if you try to make one government entity investigate wrong doing by another government agency >. IT WILL BE IGNORED.
With the advent of the tea party, conservatives now have a grass roots organization to both fight against concentrated power in both the government and corporations.
DONT BE STUCK IN YOUR BIG GOVERNMENT LIBERAL CLOSE MINDED SINK HOLE.
-
I've voted Democrat, Republican and for some other parties if I felt the best represented my interests at the time.
Looking back on my life, I grew up in a Democratic household, became a Republican when I started making decent money and grew frustrated that my personal success only drove the government's hand deeper into my pocket and finally settled as an independent when I finally realized that neither side of the aisle was terribly competent with either taxation or spending. Now I vote based on my income... if increases stay ahead of proposed taxation I'm perfectly willing to share, otherwise not.
-
If rich folk don't pay their fair share of taxes, why should I?
-
Rich folks are paying most of the taxes income taxes in this country. In fact, something approaching half of this country pays no income tax at all.
I think the debate is over what's their "fair share."
-
Because you are part of the community, you use the services supported by taxes, and because you are supposed to have a conscience.
-
fizixgeek:
"half of this country pays no income tax".
But remember that half the people of this country have no money that anyone could take.
Remember also the "deep pockets theory". You go after the people who have money.
-
I was shocked and outraged when I got my first real paycheck as a teenager on the cleaning crew at the Oregon State Fair. I knew exactly how many hours I had worked and how much I should be paid. The check came in about a 60 percent of what I expected. The explanation I got was that the government was my "silent partner." I was so mad. I had done all the work. I had given up my last week of summer to pick up trash, really the only job available because of child labor laws. In fact, I had to get a permit to work. I felt ripped off in more ways than one.I don't think I ever forgave the State for that one.
Today I own my small business and pay taxes to several more partners. If every quarter, every taxpayer spent money out of their own bank accounts to Trimet, Multnomah County, State of Oregon, the Feds, and the like, I think we'd have a lot less government.
I have two suggestions for tax reform:
1) Repeal the Current Tax Payment Act of 1943. That's the law that created withholding on all federal income taxes.
2) Move that tax due date from April 15th to the first Monday of November. Elections are held on the first Tuesday after the first Monday of November. -
Yep. It's all about you. You should not have to help pay for defense, or schools, or our scientific research, or weather forecasting, or anything else that benefits our nation overall, you are a Conservative and all of the rest of us owe you a living, without you lifting a hand.
You certainly are a Conservative! You don't need us, but we need you.
-
I had almost the opposite experience. In college, I was a conservative, convinced that, once I got a job, the government would carve out some huge chunk and leave me with a pittance.
In fact, I got a great job with a great income and found that I was paying a very reasonable 9-10% in federal income tax. Where was this oppressive tax burden? When you think about what you've been given by the system, the "bite" doesn't seem to eggregious.
-
Lol, love your tax date move!!!
-
thx1138, take a look at http://www.thirdway.org/
They have quite a few revolutionary proposals, one I really like is the tax payers receipt. Imagine how public policy would be shaped if you got a receipt for your taxes, saying exactly how many dollars went to different programs.
-
thx1138:
Are you sure that it wasn't your boss that cheated you on your first paycheck?
Some corporations have withheld pay in the name of taxes, but then forgot to forward the money to the government.
And sometimes they charge employees for "things".
-
What is the required to tax rate to sustain government?
-
It's entertaining to debate the taxing side of the equation, as it becomes an exercise in class warfare. It's also easy, since it is an issue of mechanics. However, it is the wrong discussion! Our society needs thoughtful discussion of what services government should provide. I'd surmise if you put 50 people in a room, of various economic and political backgrounds, they would reach consensus on the most desired 10-15 tasks that government should perform. The problem is our government has grown to provide many times more tasks. (Mission Creep)
If our elected leaders could stick to the 10-15 important tasks, our taxing system could become much simpler, and much less onerous!
-
Andy Grove (form Intel CEO) was grateful for the opportunity to pay taxes.
I saw Andy speak in the mid-eighties and it was moving to hear his willingness, even happiness, that he could contribute to the country he had made his home. It was the cost of living this life in this country.
I'm a serial entrepreneur and business owner. Typically a conservative group. But Andy's example certainly affected my outlook and I write my tax check each quarter with a happy heart.
Blessings!
--p
-
"The famed Boston Tea Party was in reaction to the British Crown giving tax breaks to the East India Company."
Of which giant Global Corporation the King was a part owner; in other words, tax cuts for the wealthy, just like our present day Conservative Republicans. In more other words, the Boston Tea Party and subsequent 1776 Revolution were against Conservatism and their giant powerful Corporations. Against the Corporate State.
Our founders were for small businesses and against the too powerful Corporations. For people who wanted to advance themselves through their own efforts and work, and against the abuses of those with inherited wealth.
How is it that we Americans have forgotten our history and the reasons our Founders revolted and created our United States? How did we allow the Malignant Cancer of Conservatism to creep into our Nation?
How did we allow the Corporations to be given "Personhood" and consequently the rights of a real human being?
-
The vital benefit of citizenship is the ability to vote.
Corporations pay taxes.
But they do not vote.
Is that Taxation without Representation?
I think you are wrong. Personhood is a false term....we are a person or not. What about Corporate-hood. Or Company-hood. Or Government-hood -
jacob:
Corporations do vote (indirectly)-- the shareholders vote.
-
Would it be possible to have one of the guests outline how much of the Federal budget goes to Defense, Entitlements and "everything else"?
Wild Idealism: I'd feel a lot better about paying taxes if I genuinely felt I had some say as to where the money goes... maybe 10-20 options on my tax form to which I could assign percentages... would be an interesting exercise in direct democracy, one arguably more valuable than my vote.
-
I believe part of the reason that business people feel 'taxed-to-death' is simply because of the number of different taxes they must pay at different times. Add on to this the complexity of some of the taxes, and it's no wonder business owners feel 'taxed-to-death.' The reporting requirements would quickly overwhelm anyone, and I think working people like myself simply forget this.
Ive always felt there should be progressive taxation. That is, those who have benefitted most from the economic system should have no qualms contributing a greater purportion of their income to support the system that helped create their opportunity to make wealth for themselves. Making it simpler to do so would certainly make business people feel less 'taxed-to-death'.
-
Didn't Biden make some comment about paying taxes being patriotic? I kind of feel that way - like my money is going to the good of the country/state/local gov and, to me, that's doing my part as a citizen/resident.
-
That's why I like living in Oregon. There are people here who truly feel that when one has a higher income they have a moral responsibility to pay taxes which in turn can help those less fortnate. Isn't that the Christian thing to do? I always wonder why so many Christians align themselves with the Republican party whose policies have helped the wealthy get wealthier and seem to have little sympathy or regard for the less fortunate. Their focus on taxes is, "how will it affect me (or my business) and my money" versus, "how can taxes provide programs and services that help the less fortunate?"
-
Our democracy is very easy with spending, starting a new benefit program, and continuing funding with cost-of-living escalations. But we are terrible about taxing, raising revenue, and making essential cuts.
We are lenient with gains but severely averse to loss.
When time or money is not unlimited, we have to make acute decisions reguarding what is a necessary and what is a luxury. Economics is the science of saying no.
Like a household budget, income has to balance out expenses at the end of the day. We all want to fund light rail and mass transit, clean energy solar and wind subsidies, farmer markets, small business loans, advance research for microtechnology and genetics, health care for the elderly, scholarships for merit scholars, food for pregnant women, headstart education for kindergardeners, cancer research, war on poverty, aid for the homeless, or a new lunar program. But in the worst budget crisis in a generation, many things will have to sacrificed.
Tough questions with no easy answers. But everyone should feel the pain, or it will come to sudden catastrophe--remember the Economic Collapse of 2008?...that was just a preview.
-
The problem with our current tax system isn’t necessarily the amount we pay but the disparity between how much investors, the self employed and wage earners pay. As a wage earner why should I pay 40 percent of my income in taxes when an investor pays 15 to 20 percent? And the self employed pay for a lot of personal expenses with before tax dollars, how many boat trailers do you see at the lake being towed by Joe the plumbers truck, is he using after tax dollars for his gas? I doubt it. I am about to retire and start my own business soon, I can hardly wait to be a small business owner.
-
Absolutely. What most influences my belief on taxes is what I have learned about how the tax system really works. The problem with taxes is the redistribution of national wealth from the working class to the wealthy. In Oregon, as a percentage of income, tax burdens for the working class are far higher than that for the investor class.
Why do hedge fund managers get to pay 15% capital gains rates, and no social security tax, on their so-called 'carried interest' income of tens of milliions of dollars per year? Regular tips and wages are taxed at much higher rates.
The investor class has waged class warfare on the working class, and won.
-
@ jimhiway
Yep, you got that right.
-
I am beginning to think that one of the purposes of government should be to redistribute the wealth, like Robin Hood ("Rob from the rich and give to the poor").
The reason is that if just a few people have all the money, the economy stagnates. Look at Mexico. The Mexican ambassador to the US said that, in Mexico, "a few people have a monopoly on the money supply". The result is high unemployment. Why would you risk your money on investing-- there is no reward: you already have all the money there is.
So, maybe a progressive tax system will stimulate the economy by returning the ultra-rich back to the hungry middle class.
-
Please question the man's math: I work for $10 per hour and I calculate 1 day a week is for taxes, which only equals 20% of my income. Also, at this gross income, I always get a tax refund, so my Federal tax rate is actually about 10%.
-
So if you look at your pay stub your net pay is only 20% less than your gross? Not mine, it’s about 40% and I never get a return that amounts to anything.
-
I think he's including the 7% FICA (Social Security and Medicare) that you pay, then the 7% that your employer pays, plus 10% federal and 8% state tax (both estimates). So that's about 32%.
Once again, focusing only on income tax muddles the discussion.
-
It seems like most people’s views on taxes are linked to what they think of government in general. If they think the ruling parties are competent and the government programs are efficient and necessary, then they are more likely to be less bothered by taxes. The problem with our views toward taxes, on all sides, is that they are relative. For instance, if you don’t like war you may get angry about paying taxes during a war. Or, if you don’t like health-care for all, and the government decides to fund it, you may not want to pay your taxes. In a way we saw a similar scenario with Juan Williams, when people threatened not to support NPR anymore because they didn’t agree with the decision, or the way he was fired.
In a way taxes will always be a battle, because they are a purchase that you didn’t make, they are something that you don’t have a choice but to commit to. You are born into a country, into a place that has a tax structure, and you don’t have much of a say in it. Especially when people are taxed at different rates it can seem inequitable. It is hard to keep in perspective or to have at the front of your mind what taxes do, what their justification is and why the exist in the first place. In a way we are so removed from those fundamental economic and governing principles of giving up freedoms for the protections and structures that a government provides. It is hard to feel that you are benefiting from taxes, when this way of life is the one you have always known. Taxes will always feel authoritarian, because they are in essence a tariff on life.
-
Scott --
Well put!
Especially, "Taxes will always feel authoritarian, because they are in essence a tariff on life."
But what are we as individuals getting in return in these United States?
-- Russ J (Beaverton)
-
@ scottmil
Last night I watched a movie about Oliver Wendell Holmes and his comment on taxes was: "Taxes are my investment in civilization".
I agree with Justice Holmes.
I guess one way of looking at it is that it is the difference between living as a victim and living as a citizen. I happily pay my taxes as a citizen, even while I whine about spending too much on Wars and the Military Industrial Complex that President Ike warned us against.
-
Tom D Ford,
I wouldn’t say I happily pay taxes, I think they are useful and necessary, and would often vote to increase them. But, I can’t avoid thinking that they are an unfortunate reminder, or the lesser of evils, that are necessary to keep a chaotic species in order. They are not something we ever hope for, they are simply something we have to resign ourselves to. -
Scottmil
I really do think of it as my investment. When I see that bumper sticker "My kid is an Honor Student at blah, blah, blah", I think that I had a part in that kids success because I paid my taxes for public schools.
And I have a part of NASA, and the Large Hadron Collider, and the International Space Station, and I help those who get dropped down into my part of the social safety net. I've got part of the roads and highways, the public colleges, my local library, my cnty sheriff, my Bend and Oregon State police, on and on.
In my business I have bought, invested, in the best possible tools that I could afford and they have rewarded me well for my investment and that is what I want to invest my taxes in, the best possible public schools, the best possible government employees, on and on.
I want the best possible Government Of The People, By The People, and For The People and I am a long way from getting the quality that I am willing to invest in.
-
"I started with nothing"
Nonsense! You could not start a small business without all the things our state and nation provide. An educated work force, police protection, contract law in the courts, commerce and lending infrastructure.
You started with all of those things, and they were built by the hard work and taxes of the small and large businesses before you.
I'm glad you have the hunger to want more and more, that is the passion and energy that continue to build our economy. But do not fool yourself, you owe those taxes because without them you really would start and end with nothing!
-
I have long thought that it would be nice if once in a while, business men and women would say "Thanks public, thank you very much for what you do for us".
-
I was educated in our public schools and attended a State University. My summer job through college was as a Wildland Firefighter for the Oregon Department of Forestry. I have benefited directly from taxpayer dollars in Oregon.
My Grandmother survived in her last decade on Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. My Aunt lives on Social Security Disability because she is a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. My dad worked for the US Forest Service. My mom accepted WIC when my brother and I were little and my dad was unemployed. My family has benefited from Federal Government programs.
Every day I drive on public roads. My neighborhood is protected by our local fire department and police departments (and jails and prisons that keep criminals away from my family). And, to some extent, I am safer when I fly because of the TSA and FAA, FBI, CIA, etc. Our community is safe from invasion by foreign governments because of our military.
Do I think that there is waste in government? Yes! But I happily do my taxes each year and look at the amount I pay as my fair share for these services. I then take very seriously my civic duty to engage my politicians and to vote to change the system to eliminate waste in government where I see it.
-
Past history has shown us that the only place that THE "TRICKLE DOWN THEORY" works is in a drainfield!!!!
-
if economic growth is considered desireable (and it isn't to everyone), then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to tax economic activity. it makes more sense to me to heavily tax things that we would like to do away with. things like pollution and waste and ecological damage and consumption of limited resources and employee injuries.
of course, I understand that such a radical change in tax policy is unlikely to take place with so much government inertia. under the current tax model, I believe the best we could do would be a steeply graduated income tax.
I'm also not really part of the growth booster club.
-
It's always strange to me that most of the gripes about taxes focus on payroll taxes (e.g. your small business owner earlier), yet all the political debate focuses on income tax. Who's talking about reducing payroll taxes?
-Levi in Hillsboro
-
Mr Steurle has left out the other side of progressivity, of taxing people according to how much they benefit from our governments. The wealthy benefit tremendously from our governments and they don't pay their fair share of the taxes required to run our governments, towns, cities, counties, States, and federal.
-
Any discussion of tax value relating to countries from Europe is an unfair comparison. The US is a police force and has been one. European country beneifited from the knowing if they had been attacked they would not need a military big enough to defend themselves because we, the US, would cone to their aid. These countries and their citizens would not admit to this but they know it. The threat of say Finland being invaded is near nothing with the fall of the USSR, but we have a had a hard time transitioning to smaller military model. Sec. Gates is working hard to accomplish this goal, but he is having serious push back from people who want your tax dollars for the military supplies they provide the US military. Topic change here. My father left my mother with 4 kids ages 11, 9, 1 and newborn. My mother was forced to accept food stamps, WIC and welfare cash. AS THE 11 year old in the house I saw the toll taking took on her. She hated it. She worked two jobs and went to Wedtern Culinary school while raising us. After 20 months she was off government add, except for WIC, for good. Taxes are needed. They are a must. Anyone that says otherwise is selling something. -Rob
-
I very much agree. The solution to many of our problems is to shrink the size of that military.
I heard we spend more than the rest of the world combined on our military (no source, sorry).
-
I think there is confusion between taxes and mandatory deductions from our paychecks. Social Security and medicare are not taxes but social obligations, which the majority of citizens benefit from at some point in their lives. Yes, the actual Federal tax I pay is about 10%.
-
I support both Social Security and Medicare, but all the deductions on you pay stub are taxes.
-
But people are right to complain about the regressive nature of FICA. Someone making minimum wage pays 14% of their income into FICA on the first dollar they earn. But someone making $255,000 a year pays just 1.45% on the last $150,000 they earn.
This is what I mean by a regressive tax. The poor pay a larger percentage than the rich!
-
My frustration with taxes is that last year taxes seemed to be enough to make the services happen. But then next year we'll be told that they're not enough. What happened? Inflation?
-
Collecting taxes is the only way to improve the economy. The failed policies of the fundamentalist, evangelical, NeoCon, Republicans (Republicans) that falsely claim cutting taxes IMPROVES the economy are either fools or liars.
No one wants to spend more in taxes than his neighbor, but issues are far less complicated.
We want fairness in taxation and the buy for the money! The Republicans use partial truths for no onther reason than to increase the wealth of the rich, not to help the commonwealth. Shame on them!
Republicans try to confuse harsh collection practices (and fool headed collectors' practices) with just getting people to pay, thus enraging the public and forcing a mob-like mentality to demand the end of taxation.
Face it, what we collect in taxes eventually finds its way back into your pocket in terms of services, salaries, purchases. We are no longer forking over huge sums to keep some squandering monarch on a golden throne.
Respectfully,
Neil H. Goodman
-
I've been wondering who TEA party (extreme right wing of the Republican party?) members are. Are they idealists who truly believe taxes are wrong, or do they just not want to pay any taxes?
-
Our taxes are very progressive at the fed level?
In what parallel universe?
What a massive distortion of reality!
-
Here's a good picture of who pays federal income taxes:
http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes
They're very progressive. The regressive parts of taxation have to do with Social Security and Medicare, sales taxes, cigarette taxes, lotteries, etc.
-
Isn't the top rate around 36% right now?
Was there a time when the top rate was like 90%?
-
@ Mike
Yes, you are right.
-
Yes. The tax rate on the highest wage earners has fallen since the 60s (when it was 90%). The 80s were a big time for tax cuts. However, in that period, two important things happened:
1. tax revenues increased dramatically and
2. the tax burden actually shifted toward the wealthy.
In 1980, the wealthiest 5% of Americans paid 37% of the income taxes. Today, the top 5% pays 57%. The top 1% alone pay 37%. And, today, the bottom 50% pay just 3% of all the income tax collected.
Sounds very progressive, but, as I mentioned, other taxes (FICA, sales tax, etc.) are much worse.
-
your income source mostly forms your tax opinion.
-
It has long been my opinion that the taxation of the citizens is optional: If a member of a community wants to avoid paying a TAX they can make a social contribution that otherwise offsets that tax.
I would like to know how others feel about this concept, since I have "justified' my high taxes (or low tax and high social contribution) and reconciled with my self that it's a given that those with significant incomes are expected in an advanced social infrastucture to reciprocate to the community that supports their prosperity by either paying taxes OR making community reinvestment.
Laura Roderick
-
But, we need recognize the element of compulsion in taxation. If you want to pay for your neighbor's health care, then do so. Taxation is about compelling someone else to pay for your neighbor's health care.
-
"Noblesse Oblige" did not work well even back in the days of Kings, Nobles, and "Ladies".
Depending on it works even less well in our nation and state.
And it is a huge failure currently.
Charity is just plain unreliable.
And the idea that the wealthy can build really expensive and nice places to socialize, party, and entertain themselves with their wealthy fellows and then write it off on their taxes, thus shifting their tax burden for government services onto the lower classes, is just plain wrong. The Irene Shnitzer Concert Hall being an example.
I don't mind the buildings, it's the tax burden shifting write offs that I am against. In effect, those wealthy are partying and the taxpayers are paying their bills.
-
i get the feeling that folks are in the dark, each describing the same thing but without reference to the whole object. Some of the most obscure reasoning comes from those who feel put upon by paying a share toward the common good. Were it not for a/the government, they imagine they would be unfettered in their ability to gouge out their own little kingdom - thus making themselves into a de facto taxing agency- and this irony escapes them! They also fail to see what their taxes actually do accomplish - also they fail to see that the people who they voted for promising less taxation, have in fact created quite a mess which requires more 'impossible' money to right what they set all wrong.
Taxation is, ideally, exactly a pay for benefit system. We have trained the politicians to lie to us - so who is more foolish - them, for doing it? or ourselves, for allowing it??
Of course one has to have the ability to think oneself out of a brown paper bag in order to see the uses and misuses of taxation - to put it simply as "... so much money out of my pocket" is small minded, thoughtless, and pretty much anti-social.
Without a government like this one (at least as it ideally should be, and is close to being, though perhaps not close enough) it would be the 'entrepreneurs' who come between us and our money - and if you really think voting with your wallet is an ideal system of government, then you probably think your banker should be beatified as well.
So, should we become again a nation of robber-barons, and hope for their charitable impulses to kick-in toward the end of their lives, a land where each of us is king and lords it about in our own tiny sphere, or do we join forces, elect the most intelligent and ethical among us, and step aside as we each become incapable of thinking the deeper thoughts necessary in order to govern such a large enterprise as we are?
This belief that "I could have been successful in business if only the government wasn't taxing me" is a childish lie, and they are lying to themselves as practice, then they bring these lies out into the world, and it is a type of contagion of weak-mindedness. Mass hysteria, as it were.
-
lolo,
Thanks, that was a great post. I kind of thought the show might have been more about the bigger picture, or the philosophy of taxes, similar to the way you have described them. I think this is exactly the problem, that people forget the scope of what taxes do, they simply focus on an esoteric issue and how that myopic issue effects them. I think that is one problem with journalism, perhaps an unavoidable problem, it is so focused on technicalities and specific facts that it has no way to provide an overview of the issue. Many keep repeating the mantra that ‘we will let you decide,’ which so often results in talking about the leaves in detail, but always forgetting the branches that hold the tree together. I don’t mean this show, really, but just media and public discourse in general. It seems like people have ran with the ‘we will let you decide’ and now use it as a cop-out to not get into the tricky territory of linking things together. Maybe they feel it will seem subjective, but it will only seem subjective if it is badly done.
-
most people like paying taxes if they receive more than they pay in
-
Raising taxes must be on the table, but not at the expense of small businesses, wage-earners, pensioners and the poor.
Garnering adequate government revenue to support programs and projects for the common good by boosting taxes on the megarich and giant corporations gets my vote.
Let's restore the funding our public agencies need to function for the people, not the plutocrats.
Let's reverse our current tax structure's absurd wealth-transfer scheme -- taking from the poor and people of modest means and giving to the rich -- that's devastating our environment, endangering our democracy and destroying our middle class.
As Warren Buffet said: "There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning."
Let's fight back.
We can turn the tide by working for progressive, not regressive, taxes.
-
Yeppers!
-
Progressivity: nice idea but here are some thoughts.
1. If progressivity applies to income taxes, should it not also apply to other taxes? Why not real estate? Why not sales taxes?
2. As long as the rich are taxed at higher rates, they will feel entitled to more benefits from the system. But if we eliminate progressivity (a flat tax is only regressive from the tipped perspective of progressivists), then the rich will have no claim on greater benefits from the system. Only then can those with lower-middle incomes (like me) reasonably argue that we deserve all the benefits the rich get.
-
Around the early 1990s republicans were attacking American workers, saying that the Japanese were far more productive and we American workers needed to catch up, work harder and longer and give up some wages and benefits.
But then studies came out and it turned out that Americans were the most productive in the world with the Japanese lagging back a few levels.
But what enlightened me about the US wealth redistribution structure was some numbers that came out of a couple of US government bureaus, like Labor, etc. The average US worker Produced about $49,000 and the average US worker was Paid about $21,300 (minus taxes). Now that means that the worker was only paid about 44% of what he produced and the government only taxed him on that 44% but what happened to the rest, the other 56%? Well that can be looked at as sort of like a tax paid to the wealthy, as what Romans called Tribute, or what Capitalists call "Profit".
We complain in this US about the mere pittance that the government taxes us on what we are paid but we miss the elephant in the room, the "tax" that the wealthy take out of our paychecks even before the government gets their hand in.
If we paid 10% or 15% on our $21,300, well that's around $320 max, but compare that to the wealth "tax" of aproximately $27,700, and we see that the wealthy take around 86 times what the government takes out of our "Production".
And those aproximate numbers are what "enlightened" me about the philosophy of "taxes and spending". Our government might have a few problems of waste amd misdirected tax funds but our current wealth redistribution system is the real problem compared to our government.
-
Ummmmm Tom, I was there, it wasn't just republicants. Otherwise a great post!
-
Oops, I was off by an order of magnitude. That $320 should be $3,020 and that 86 should be around 8.6.
Well, at least my training from years ago on the slide rule and how to constantly recheck calculations done on it has paid off, waking me up in the middle of the night last night with the corrected numbers. Kinda funny though, in these days of computers and electronic calculators.
-
Oops again, $3200, of course.
-
Comments are now closed.
I like the Conservative Republican idea as exemplified by Bush/Cheney, that we can spend a trillion US dollars on wars against the innocent people of Iraq and the very few Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, (who Rumsfeld gave permission to fly out to Pakistan out of Bora Bora, including Osama Bin Laden) and just put it all on the US credit card.
Hey, who is going to force Americans to pay the bills that the Conservative Republicans charged, "on the US credit card"?
The US has the biggest military in the world, just like every other "empire" in history that spent itself to Death on their military "empire", including the Romans and the British, etc.
We could have spent that money on our people, but our Conservative Republican-American Friends demanded War and so here we are, in a devastated economy, widespread joblessness, many small businesses Killed off and our kids and schools in danger.
If I was not living in the middle of it I would not believe it.
Thomas Friedman likes to write about how the world is ___, but the world of Conservatism, with their praying for "The Rapture", the planetary suicide, is just plain nuts to me. Absolutely nuts!
"It's people wot matter to me"!
But Conservatives worship their Corporations and work politically for their Corporative State that Benito Mussoloni promoted so hard for.