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Northwest police officers have been in the news a fair amount recently, but not the kind of news they want.
In Portland, the case of a 12-year-old girl who was shot with a beanbag gun while resisting arrest received international attention. And the James Chasse case, now more than three years old, still reverberates with disciplinary recommendations. (You can listen to a previous show we did about Chasse's death here.)
Meanwhile, there have been a few high-profile attacks on officers in the region. On Sunday, four police officers from Lakewood, south of Tacoma, were killed in a coffee shop. Last month, a Seattle officer was shot to death and four police cars were fire-bombed by a "lone domestic terrorist."
The Oregonian's columnist Anna Griffin wrote last week (about Portland) that
[t]here is an innate disconnection between the police and the people they protect, particularly in a city as liberal as this one.
If you've felt this disconnect — from either side — how has the last month's news affected you? Were you swayed by the Portland Police Association's recent march in support of Chris Humphreys, who was put on leave following the beanbag incident? What lessons do you take from the disparate threads of these stories: allegations of police abuse on the one hand and seemingly execution-style police targeting on the other?
GUESTS:
- Kristian Foden-Vencil: Reporter for OPB News
- Harry Jackson: Retired Portland Police lieutenant currently working as a public safety officer
- Anna Griffin: Columnist for The Oregonian
- Bishop C.T. Wells: Senior pastor of Emmanuel Temple Church in Portland
Tagged as: police
Photo credit: Zervas / Creative Commons
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It is worth remembering that a large percentage of officers dying standing next to a motor vehicle. The first 30 seconds can be critical to the outcome of a police encounter.
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There are certain police tactics that I have learned about called "knock and talk", that I wont go into, but police are trained to routinely use their position of authority in inappropriate ways.
on average nationally there is one swat style police break-in to the wrong house per day, and one third of those result in injury to a totally innocent person, I don't know what number of these mistake results in death, but this is totally unacceptable.
I spoke to multnomah co sheriff internal affairs about this and I was assured that multnomah co sheriff doesn't engage in these sort of tactics recklessly. I hope this is accurate.
My mom watched 6 portland policemen exit a police vehicle and enter a political demonstration dressed in street clothes and start arguments with the protesters and push one into the street and then arrest that person for being in the street, which was not allowed in this demonstration.
thanks for the topic, I appreciate the show and the opportunity to participate.
Shody
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Where did you get your statistics from?
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Hi,
I was quoting thom on the thom hartmann radio show from 2 weeks or a month ago.
I did a quick internet search and see that it is hard to confirm the number, it looks like there were 110 swat raids per day nationally between the early 1980a to late 1990s, but Thom said the numbers are going up as swat team receive federal grants in the form of military hardware.
these links do not confirm my number of one wrong address swat raid a day nationally but some of them describe some of the mistakes resulting in death
http://www.theagitator.com/2008/03/10/houston-drug-raid-stats/
2 bad address in a year for the city of dallas TX:
http://www.dallascriminaldefenselawyerblog.com/2008/01/dallas_swat_my_bad_wrong_house.html
this is linked to 12 specific cases of bad addresses, Oops, most of the links are bad too:
http://www.drugwar.com/oopswrong.shtm
http://www.drugwar.com/pswatgrandpa.shtm
http://www.drugwar.com/pninjashame.shtm
Shody
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One part of this incident I have not heard is just what size is this child. If she is very large perhaps a bean bag is better than what was done to a mentally ill man . With the level of violence the last couple of months locally we might want to have a bit more investigation of all of the regional violence
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The police union president, Sgt. Scott Westerman, says that the girl was 5'-7" and 160 pounds. How does this affect your thinking?
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Five Foot Four, 160 pounds. Call her a 12 year old if you like, but a much more accurate description would be "Adult Sized Minor".
Add to that the facts that she had already been in so much trouble on previous occcasions on Light Rail that she was not only on an Exclusion List, but was known On Sight by Officer Humphreys, in a crowd.
I watched the video and saw a Cat-Fighting Shadow of an adult-sized person making every attempt to get loose and get away.
We need to let the cops do their job. They need to know we "Have Their Back" when they are working with the most difficult part of society.
A lot of the people the Police deal with have almost no sense of Proper Conduct in public, at home, or anywhere else. They think Squalor is normal. They think poverty is normal. They think violence is normal.
One report I read out of the recent reporting on the Officers Killed near Tacoma said the the person they are looking for had told a friend a day or two ahead of the crime that he was going to "kill some cops and watch the news". This fellow needed to be back in jail right then, but because his "friend" had no sense of what is normal he continued to roam the streets a free man.
And we need to hold parents more accountable for the conduct of their children. What was a 12 year old kid doing out so late at night with such a crummy group of friends.
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No... she was a 12 year old girl period.
We need to police the cops - they're out of control. And it's irrelevant what she was doing out at night.
Why do so many Americans not trust the cops? Much better question.
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Yes her size makes a difference to me..Anyone that size can injure some one seriously. Better way to deal with her than a body drop.
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Part of the discussion about regional law enforcement must consider the budget pressures on local law enforcement agencies. Money for additional officers and deputies, new equipment, and investigative specialty services is vanishing. The demands to "make due" are stretching the street enforcement officers' ability to do pro-active community policing. The budget cutbacks have been absorbed by extremely professional departments and better management practices, but the stress in continually building.
The systemic effect will be longer response times and more police-citizen encounters in moments of crisis that escalate quickly to use-of-force-incidents. When police officers and sheriff deputies are not allowed the time to know their communities and meet-and-greet citizens, the constant demands for them to respond to crisis and emergency calls creates a climate of confrontation.
Budget cuts to police and sheriff departments= stress on law enforcement=fewer officers=police contacts that seem harsh and unwarranted as cops on the street try to cover duties that actually require many more first responders than the current budgets allow.
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It is entirely too easy to sit back and second guess an Officers judgement after the fact.
Very few people listening to the show have ever been in the position to decide wether or not to pull the trigger, and it's not one taken lightly.
There is no way to be in the Officers head at the time of pulling the trigger, no one else saw what he saw, heard what he heard, and felt the feelings he felt. That split second decision was his to make, and thats why we pay him, and what we trained him to do.
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I agree that being a police officer is a difficult job, and on any day a cop may be asked to make a life and death decision. But no person is infallible. Witness Portland Police Officer Joey Wild who was just sentenced to 6 months in prison for threatening to rape a 14 year old girl among other things.
The question is how do we oversee and control officers? The people of Portland want their police force to use less lethal force against children, the mentally ill, and people who are not really a threat. The police officers don't want Dan Saltzman or the police chief, or anybody to tell them how to do their job.
When you work for the public, you have to be accountable to the public. When your boss puts you on paid administrative leave for shooting children and killing the mentally ill, you have to accept that as part of the job.
Otherwise, who controls the police?
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Ofc. Humphries didn't make a split second decision. He walked on to that platform with the beanbag gun waited until that child was on the ground with an adult man fighting her before shooting her. I believe his decision was an impulsive and chronic relience on aggression towards citizens.
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We need to hire police officers with fuller heads then
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I didn't mean to leave you with the impression that the police are always, right after re-reading the post I could see how it can be taken that way.
I suppose to put it more bluntly He shot her with a bean bag shot gun - so what, she is not seriously hurt and it diffused a situation where others may have been seriously injured.
My concern is the common practice of assuming everything is excessive force, Police, like all others are fallable, and investigations following any officer involved escalation of force case are done to see if the officer performed within the left and right limits availble to them. In this case a police officer used a bean bad shot gun to diffuse a situation, age, gender, and smarts really don't matter.
We could what if this all day, so here goes, -lets say this 12 y/o had aids, the resisting arrest on the concrete drew blood from both the officer and the criminal. Now my tax dollars have to pay for lifelong treatment of a Cop who will ultimatley die?? - Now is it better to use a bean bag gun?
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I attended the police rally last week and was surprised by the attitude of many officers there. It seems they forgot who they work for. In a civilized country, police power is subordinate to civilian power. The "no-confidence" vote against the city commissioner and the police chief suggest that the cops think they are in charge. They are not. The elected political leaders are in charge.
Officer Humphreys killed a mentally ill man. He shot an unruly 12 year old with a firearm. If the elected leaders think he should be off the street, he should be off the street. The cops think they run this city. They don't. The people do.
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One issue I haven't seen addressed is what is this officer doing carrying a beanbag gun on a train platform? I would imagine that it should be reserved for crowd control. I looks like this officer was just looking for an excuse to use it. In what world can't two trained police officers subdue a suspect? 12 years old or not. This episode can't look good in any light. Most people would think this was assault, not reasonable force.
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I am glad that police officers carry shotguns with bean bags, if he didn't have it less than lethal means availbile, this could be a case of an Officer involved shooting rather than an escalation of force.
The Current Portland Police Policy puts the bean bag shotgun in the same force category as a baton. Batons offer no stand off distance, whereas the Bean bag gun can be used from point blank to 50 ft.
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Definitely - the thug should be fired, immediately
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Two years ago I was jogging in the Rose Garden in the morning at 8am and was stalked by a man. I was pretty scared and came home as soon as it was possible by taking roads that I thought were safer. The same day later I happened to run into a cop in my neighborhood who was there checking out the real estate in his cop car. I told him the incidence. He said to me - I was stalked because I was cute!
I have never jogged in the Rose Garden or the Washington Park since then because I think it is unsafe for women and I dont think that the police in Portland care about women's safety.
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I am James Chasse.
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I am Rodney King
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I think it is important to note that Humphreys, the man who shot a beanbag gun at a 12 year old girl, is the same officer who just last year killed a 27 year old schizophrenic, James Chasse.
He is still being paid by my tax dollars and this is completely unacceptable.
Communities need to come together and create their own networks of support free from state oppression.
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He clearly has a Dirty Harry complex - but Clint Eastwood didnt shoot at 12 year old girls on the ground. What on earth was he thinking? How couldl this thug go home to his family after doing such a disgusting thing at work?
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James Chasse was schizo, are you saying that mentally ill people are incapable of posing a threat to others?
Or a 160lb criminal can't harm people during a fight?
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I am pondering whether people would take police derective more seriously if the threat of force was more common. I beleive in a free and just society in which my civil liberties are not trampled on but I also have began to feel that there may be to much understanding and leniency from our government and society. Perhaps if there were harsher physical reprecutions for illegal acts then there would be less crime? Just a thought.
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What leniency? You have more people in jail than the rest of the world COMBINED!!!! Eyes wide open please.
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I think we've got a problem of over-generalization. Just as not every 12-year-old is a sweetheart and not every mentally ill adult male is an imminent threat worthy of giving several broken ribs, not every police officer is some sort of robo-cop bent on "puttin' the smack-down" on the citizenry. Just like in any other field, the overwhelming majority are good people who seek to do the right thing. There are also a small number of bad characters. It remains to be seen, perhaps, whether Officer Humphreys crossed the line in this case.
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There is no reason to like police as a group anymore then there is a reason to like baristas as a group. Even if you could say the profession is noble in itself, it wouldn't indicate the individuals are. Being an officer is simply a job like most others, except this job gives you a sense of power, a sense of authority that is unusual in most professions. In this job the public are generally not your customers---or if they are, it is in an attempt to protect the good from the bad. A constant pitting of one against another.
As a group the police are an army of enforcement, protection, punishment and our 'big brother.' They are the most visceral representation of our collective laws. Constantly reminding us there is a limit to our freedoms---and, sometimes, giving us our freedoms. But it is bittersweet! Perhaps with an emphasis on the bitter. The police and their methods are the lesser of two evils. They are perhaps necessary, but we would not wish for them or desire their existence. They are a constant reminder of the bad in life and the human battle to simply survive. They remind us we need saving from each other. They keep order---but the very fact it needs to be kept is exactly the problem. Is our human default chaos? We are being governed. We are being policed. Can we not be trusted? It is human nature to dislike the idea of the police, even if we break no laws and are no criminal.
The quote you chose from Anna Griffin's opinion piece is telling, because of one word innocently slipped in: liberal. Insinuating a disconnect between police and liberals. Something we perhaps innately understood, but it has not been verbalized by us, or the author. We have not explained it to each other. This is the crux and the most interesting part of this entire discussion. Are the police versus liberals simply a cultural divide? Suburbs versus city? Or is it based on US history? Or is it not so superficial? Is it about our ideologies as people? I think it is fair to say our police and armies are largely a conservative group. But why? Is this coincidence, or cultural---or does it run deeper into the ideologies off life and living, and what kind of place we want our world to be?
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It seems that almost every time there is a shooting by police, the investigation shows that the officer “perceived” himself to be in mortal danger and responded by shooting the suspect in the chest, killing the suspect. Since that almost always is what happens, it must be policy to shoot to kill. Why is that? Shooting to kill makes the officer judge, jury, and executioner. Isn’t it possible to shoot to wound rather than shoot to kill?
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Where would you propse they shoot them? Major arteries run through the entire human body and being shot in the leg for example, could sever an artery that bleeds a person out in less than a minute. Also, if an officer has made the discision to shoot a suspect then they typically pose an armed threat. If you wound someone with a gun then they can cntinue to shoot at you or the public.
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Ask any cop and they will tell you they are trained to shoot to kill.... get over it, you're a target and the police regard themselves as "authority" and there's no way now to enforce limits on that authority.
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There is a very good book out there called "On Killing" by LTC (ret) Dave Grossman, It is good reading regarding all of the emotions, mechanics, and training that go into shooting other humans.
You need to shoot them center mass, it provides the best odds of hitting the target, and it provides a backstop for the bullet. I don't want someone going for a leg shot, missing and killing my wife 2 blocks away walking the dog.
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The Elephant in the room of this latest incident is James Chasse- the unarmed, mentally ill man who was myurdered by the actions and inactions of Ofc. Humphries prior to this incident. What is troubling (to me) is that this latest incident shows Ofc Humphries continued willingness to use excessive force against unarmed person.
What concerns me is that had Ofc Humphries missed his target (the extremity) even slightly the girl could have been seriously injured and or killed by the use of the bean bag round.
I remember biking by the protrate form of James Chasse, and seeing him lying on the ground and seeing the officers laughing. That is an image that sticks with me to this day.
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Humphreys is a legitamized murderer, pure and simple. He should be taken off the streets before he executes someone else.
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I am shocked every time I hear a commentator state that "a teenager was shot" by a police officer in this case. The bean bag part of the story is only explained later. It implies that she was shot with a bullet firing gun. There is a huge difference between being shot with a bean bag vs. a bullet, and this should be stated up front: a teenager was shot with a bean bag gun.
As far as I can tell the argument is about whether he should have stood back further from the girl when he was firing. This is one of the few stories I've heard where I agree the police are being unfairly criticized. As a Max rider I'm glad the police are controlling unruly teenagers and a bean bag gun does not seem out of line for dealing with a girl who was punching a police officer and had stolen purses previously. I want public transportation to be kept safe so that I can ride without worrying about being accosted by people who think there are no repercussions to disrespecting the people around them.
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I think the Portland police are a little full of themselves. The tail is clearly wagging the dog here. I'm appalled that people are supporting someone shooting a girl at point blank.
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We need to look at the bigger picture. This is systemic. The mental health system has broken down. We have few or any hospital beds for the chronically mentally ill. Those without insurance or Oregon Health Plan have no access to services including medication. The number of untreated mentally ill on the streets is huge. The number doing drugs and/or alcohol only add to the problem. The police are not trained mental health specialist. While they have received some training it is not their job. If we want less stress on the police we need to rebuild the mental health health system.
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unfortunately what the police are and what we hope they will be is not near enough the same thing
it’s true that there are of civil liberties violations, but also corruption among the public, and obviously a lack of training, and prior to that, selection of candidates, to be trusted in an armed force
to some extent the sort of policing we accept indicates how civilized we are,
police as a form of governance ? is it not a de facto situation at times -
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If not for the video, this incedent may never have gone above radar. Humphreys looked like he couldn't wait to use his firearm! It's clear from the video that he could have manually restrained her with the other officer. The beanbag was obviously the wrong tool for the job, and places Humphreys' judgement in question, especially considering his history.
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the 'majority population' people do not see the amount of police misdeed not because they are purer in thought and action; not hardly -
only when the face of those policing is very similar to the face of those policed, will there be the face of justice
education on all sides reduces the need for enforced policing
the police cannot be allowed to themselves become some kind of mob; some must change their ways and minds re: who they are, what and how they are meant to accomplish.
we should not accept police which acts in vigilante-like ways. they are meant as the force which brings the suspect to the halls of justice alive to face the law - they are not punishers and worse.
This is what we must NOT accept.
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I have spent many years working with police officers. It seems that they are given tools to use; yet when one of those tools is put into action, the pubic gets upset; and, ultimately, the police officer gets put on administrative leave.
Why are officers given those tools if not to use them? It seems to me that the use of the tools (used when the offender has been less than cooperative) gives the officers a method to end the confrontation. They also use them, in my opinion, so that the offender is kept from injuringing him/herself or others.
Police have a job to do - and I believe the majority of them are just like you and me - dedicated to their profession.
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I just have to jump in here: Policing is NOT a profession. Medicine and Law are professions ... policing is a job.
We should also stop calling it Law Enforcement as it gives the wrong impression to cops
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After reading the stories and watching the videos of the event at the max station I think that the officers were/are in the clear and that they're actions are justifiable. What does worry me, though, is that the officer who shot the young woman with the bean bag was involved in the Chase arrest. Although I support the police in their actions, I worry about this officer's use of violence in the past and present.
-Drew Kelly
La Grande, Oregon
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I understand and appreciate that the Portland Police Union is trying to preserve a process for their vocational safety and to guide the difficult decisions they must make on a regular basis.
However, I strongly feel that the Portland Police are far too quick to use violence in their interactions. I think it is deplorable that a 12 year old child - and a 12 year old is still a child, people, regardles of size- would be approached by 2 adult men and be expected not to feel threatened and retaliate when grabbed or thrown to the ground.
I work in schools and I have no doubt that the bean bagging of a 6th or 7th grader by school employees would be demonized, as it should be. The police should not be held above this standard when dealing with youth, the mentally ill, or our community as a whole.
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I attended the Portland Police Citizens Academy in 2006. It gave me a far better understanding of the Police and the work they do.
All the Police I have met have been professional. Citizens ask the Police to protect us and then complain when something goes wrong.
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We have a right to complain - in a real "profession" things wouldnt "go wrong" so frequently. Police attitude is appalling .
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Can anyone there explain why Officer Humphreys (of all people) is patrolling the max platform with a bean bag gun? Given his history and all...
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Since the rule was changed some years ago that Portland Police did not have to live within the city boundaries more and more of our police come from outside. They only come to Portland to work.
It is a us vs them attitude because that is what it has become. Many police don't disguise their disgust for Portland. We need to police ourselves. We need all new hire police to have to live in Portland like they used to be.
This is good economics (the taxes we pay stay in the city), good for the environment (less commuting), and better knowledge of the community (their our neighbors).
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Where was the due process for James Chasse?
I have a mentally ill brother. I'm sure glad he doesn't live in Portland.
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I always told my son not to challenge the cops because while they hadnt killed an unarmed white man yet, it was a matter of time.
That was before James Chasse.
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It troubles me that both sides in this issue have automatically responded in an adversarial way. And then they wonder why they are treated as adversaries.
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Bingo.
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The police representative you have on the air talks about the "consequence of not respecting authority" and he even once refered to the consequence of "showing disrespect". This is consistent with my experience that most people join the police force to satisfy their own need for power, and not out of some altruistic cause. Shooting people is powerful.
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It is not the citizen's job to "show respect" to cops.... who the hell do they think they are? When did "disrespect of cop" become a crime? The police attracts too many guys who "didn't quite make the football team" if you get my drift. It is quite obvious when you meet them.
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I do not know if it has been mentioned in the blog but it is clear that the guests on the show are dancing around the 400lb gorilla of RACE. As an African American male newcomer to PDX I have already been in several encounters with law enforcement. All for bicycle related matters. I frequently roll through stop signs (not lights) and when I first arrived I did not always wear a helmet or have blinkies at night. No matter what the reason for the stop the police ALWAYS subjected me to a 15 minute long search for prior warrants in other states.
It was to get away from this kind of harrasment that I left my previous home. There the database searches took the better part of an hour so on balance PDX is an improvement... and the roads are better. But, it must be said, there is a racial bias in the way law enforcement in most, if not all, states of the U.S. conduct their affairs. I don't know James Chassey's race. I do not know the race of the 12 year old girl on the MAX platform. I do not know Kendra James' race. I wonder how much money I would lose betting that they are all African American?
How is it that I hear these stories of all this police brutality over and over and still not know the race of the participants? What is this, a new kind of censorship? I am told whether I want to know or not that so and so is "the first African American to _________" but for several days this incident on the MAX has been reported with all references to the race of the girl and the officers unreported. I would argue that it is far more relevant in situations where there has been injury or death. I also don't believe that officers should be given any more freedom to self police themselves.
H
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James Chasse was caucasion.
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The majority of the police are not like you and me. The majority of the police are conservative. The majority of the police are a certain kind of people. They are the kind of people that are willing to be in a position of power over others. They are willing to rule. They are willing to judge. They are willing to carry a gun. They are willing to use it.
They are not like you and me---this is the problem! It is not particularly their fault, it is the inherent nature of the job and the type of person who would do it (assuming it is by choice). It is not healthy human nature to have that kind of power, to do that kind of work. That is why it is a constant battle to police the police. They are a necessary evil.
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Bingo! Exactly - you hit the nail on the head.
Here's a thing: go on the Bend Police Dept or Sheriffs Dept websites and try finding the place where you can register a complaint.... not so easy.
Who do they think they are exactly?
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Is Harry Jackson the best they could come up with to represent the case of the police? He's not very compelling.
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To all the officers that I have or will deal with “Thank You” for the job you do!
Yes, even when you catch me! -
I am appalled by the Portland police right now. I am a white, middle class mom, and I'm teaching my 3 year old biracial son to be wary of police precisely for this reason. Police are not someone to trust, they are people that MAY be there for you, but may NOT be there for you also. We have been tracking Chief Sizemore's progress as police chief and have been EXTREMELY pleased with her work in Portland. When she was interviewed on Talk of the Nation a few months ago in relation to the Gates situation, she made me proud to be living in Portland. She made me feel SAFER to be living in Portland. Police officers who are fighting against Chief Seizmore's oversight misunderstand their role as police officers. And they make me feel LESS safe, by arguing there is some sort of reason to shoot a 12 year old. As a mother, they make me feel a bit terrified. The gentleman that is now saying, "it is dangerous to confront authority," is quite troubling. The whole point of democracy is to confront authority and stand up for your rights. And police officers far too often don't see how frequently they (perhaps inadvertently) assume a situation incorrectly and deny people's rights.
We feel strongly that the single largest thing that the commissioner and Chief Seizmore can do to improve the police force (and increase the ability to critically think and reflect on one's actions) is to require that each officer has a minimum of a BA degree, and a minimum of 6 months of living on a culture different from one's own (example, a white police cadet would live for 6 months with an African American family in N Portland, a black officer would live for 6 months with a white rural family, etc).
We need to let Chief Seizmore do her job. SHE makes me feel safer. Her disciplinary action has made me feel safer. The response of the Portland Police make me feel scared.
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It frightens me that you plant a seed of disrespect in your child’s head. Let your child grow up and make his own mind up based on his life experiences. If, confronted with a situation involving police your child is calm and communicative, thing will go fine. If, he is agitated, aggravated or disrespectful based on some sick ideological crap he learned from his momma, things will not go well and it will be a self fulfilling prophecy.
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I think you are absolutely justified in teaching your child to be wary of police officers. We live in a racist society and this cities police force is highly reactionary to the color of skin.
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I think that the PPB protection of Officers who abuse their authority is part of the problem.
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The comment about parents vs. police using a bean bag gun to hold a child accountable does not work. Parents are not charged with the responsibility to maintain the safety of the community. It's not about holding the child accountable, it's about the officers getting the situation safe for the community, the rest of the people on the platform and even the girl herself.
As far as living in the community, it would be great, but can you imagine running in to a couple you responded to during a domestic violence situation at the grocery store? Or the person you arrested walking down the street?
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The biggest issue I can see regarding Law Enforcement is that there is a double standard regarding accountability. Citizens who have their civil rights violated, are harassed or abused have very little means at there disposal to hold those officers accountable and get justice. The police have all the power and we the people have little to none.
The police hold back information from the public and resist any oversight from civilians. They expect us to trust them implicitly but they do not trust us.
I for one do not trust the police. Their outright refusal to question their own actions and discipline those within their own ranks is a serious problem. For the record I am an educated white professional with no criminal history. I can only imagine how people of color must feel towards police.
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THe argument is given that ordinary citizens like me cannot properly judge police actions because we haven't "been there."
It's true I don't walk around in a blue uniform and carry a gun. I don't confront criminals, risk getting shot. I have great respect for the police for doing so, for standing in for me and the rest of us in dangerous situations.
But I can empathize with these situations to a degree, I can sort out facts from baloney, and I can be told what police are trained to do, what their rules about use of force are, and compare a pattern of facts to them and make a judgment. If you substitute laws for police training and procedure, you realize judging police actions that are on the edge is similar to a criminal trial. I'm not a dope dealer, crackhead, or practice identity theft. Yet no one questions my ability to judge criminals if I'm a juror; why is it different for the police?
The great majority of police do protect and serve. The incidents that are questionable should be investigated without undue interference from the police.
As to the use of the beanbag, as a former child care worker, I restrained many violent youth, including males my size or slightly larger. I always followed procedure, remained aware of where furniture was, where I was taking the kid down, where the kid's head was. Occasionally, two of us participated in a difficult restraint, but no child was ever injured. I can't believe the officer shooting the beanbag used minimal force.
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My biggest problem with the state of policing in the USA - the power a lone poor officer on the street wields to ruin a life is far to strong. For instance, a friend was arrested for criminal mischief as a juvenile, as an adult he is not able to pursue many opportunties to support his livelyhood because of this one instance.
Do we as a society want these individuals controlling such matters? Essentially that is what police do. The court of law takes an officers word as science 99 times out of 100.
There is no room in our society for any messing up. There are laws that make just about everything illegal (except work and sitting in your home) if you word it correctly. Young people are impulsive and make mistakes. Yet we are witnessing adults/officers all over the country making terrible, poor, implusive decisions without much any represcussions. People have a right to be angry.
Read 1984? Read much about police states? Giving unlimitied power to police will lead us down a nasty path...Many feel we are at that point or very close.
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It's too bad your friend made that decision.
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Right. At 13.
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I am an Ex con, but that don’t define me. I have turned my life around and understand both sides of the coin. I have more respect for officers than most folks do. These men have an incredibly tough job. I know firsthand, that there are people in this world that would do thinks to you that you could never imagine. And police officers have to deal with these folks on a daily bases. It is easy to be a Monday morning Quarter-back. So what if he didn’t use the bean bag gun? They would have to possibly hyperextend her elbow joint to get her to submit or break her jaw with a 230lb knee ride. Possibly risk her reaching for a gun in the process. Would that be better than a bruise to the largest muscle in her body? Get real. Let’s let these men & women do their jobs. People need to learn not to resist. 12 years old is as good as any age to learn that.
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I applaud this radio community (TOL, guests, and listening audience) for having this difficult and necessary dialogue. Communities demand transparency and accountability from their police institutions; often our organizational culture and bureaucracy get in the way of delivering these instrumental expectations.
Thank you Mr. Foden-Vencil for your well articulated insights into the job of a police officer.
There is clearly a disconnect between police and the communities we serve; this is not an "innate" gap, but rather one that exists for multiple, complex reasons that can be analyzed and addressed by stakeholders on both sides of the gap- police leadership (and subsequently officers in the field) and community leaders (and subsequently community members).
Police culture is amidst a sea change; for the last decade agencies across the nation have been hiring people who don't fit the misconceived stereotype that is reflected in so may negative comments in this dialogue. The forces of change in police culture, and yes it needs to change to reflect a more positive community relationship, are also internal.
Police officers are intelligent, capable critical thinkers that have a strong sense of social justice (their motivation to do this, frankly, often too difficult job). These qualities and characteristics get skewed by community members who treat police (either in dialogue like this, in personal contact, or in other community conversations) with the same disdain and prejudice that they accuse police of acting with. These qualities and characteristics also get skewed by leadership failures and often paralyzing bureacracy from the top down through police organizations- leadership sets the tone for how officers behave.
We (police) must be willing to hear and process this uncomfortable dialogue; our community members must be willing to get beyond their own "profiling" of who we are as police officers, and by the way, members of the communty.
We in law enforcement seek this dialogue and learning; may it be a process that we all participate in and bravely listen, hear and become mindful of how we can be champions of positive change and the continuted growth of our communities.
For those of you you just want to hate police (and, lets be honest- you are a part of the problem) our thoughts and prayers for healing are with you.
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Good comments.
The community tends to see the law enforcement community as wallpaper and to not pay very close attention to anything other than TV cop shows until they need to dial "911" for some reason. Then they wait for their idealized image of a first responder to roll up and take charge, solve their problem, and blend back into the background.
It does not work that way. Law enforcement works best as a dynamic partnership with other elements of a healthy community. Right now in Oregon and Washington, layoffs and budget cuts are forcing an "us or them" attitude both on the public and in the departments. Community Policing is going by the wayside as the cops become primarily emergency responders and not problem solvers.
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OregonOfficer,
Thanks for the comment, but you are wrong about a key point. The problem of disconnect is and always will be 'innate' or 'inherent.' Many of these 'stereotypes' are based on statistical facts. Many of them are no more stereotypes then saying athletes like to play sports, or that they are physically strong. It is a specific kind of person that becomes a police officer, a person who is willing to be in a position of power, a person who is willing to police the population, a person who is willing to engage in physical and mechanical battle when necessary, and on and on. There are inherent components to each and every job that ties its members together in a collective stereotype. To say police are all different is kind of meaningless---because, for as different as they may all be, they are all still willing and doing the same job.
Of course the public can make nice with the police. The marketing forces can come out and mend relationships. You can give us your business cards. You can be our friends. We can smile at each other at Starbucks. We can even break bread together. But at the end of the day you are in charge, you have the power. We are not your true friends---we are your subordinates, and we always will be. Whether we hate you or we love you, it isn't us you go home to, it isn't us you have to watch out for---the really enemy is the innate power of your occupation, and that in itself can destroy you.
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"When you challenge authority the results could be tragic." This was repeated by both your guests. The comment made by a caller was that if he used the same type of force to subdue his son under similar circumstances he would face severe legal consequences. Your guests would not address the comment. One of your guests made the comment of where was the girl's mother. Perhaps the mother had two choices; use force to deal with her daughter and face arrest or let her daughter run wild. I think this double standard is difficult for parents and difficult for society in general. I think we should all face consequences when we exercise inappropriate violence toward another human being. Police are no exception.
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Congratulations, you are all now officially citizens of a police state! Sam and Dan have given the keys to the city to the police union and people here are to timid to do anything about it. Its Ok to beat a man to death on a city street in broad daylight (you might get 2 weeks off), shoot unarmed women in their cars, etc, etc. The little girl on the Max platform is lucky to still be alive with Humphreys on the force. Soon the City will be paying out another million dollars in a wrongfull death suit
Been raped...too bad, stolen car...don't worry about it...the police are too busy with their political agenda. I think its time to recall both Sam and Dan. They (and the police) are a danger to the citizens of this fine city.
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The fact is that as a well-dressed white guy with glasses, I have virtually nothing to fear from U.S. police. (Aside from multiple traffic tickets--and experience just with those makes me nervous about police cars behind me.)
Many of my non-white students are in a totally different boat: I have property that the police protect--they don't. They get watched and followed by police and other authorities all the time (for whatever reason)--I don't.
I've seen a student reporting a dangerous incident to Portland police treated with suspicion rather than as the victim that she was. When a student's mother gets arrested (for good reason or not) what does this do for the girl's perception of police?
Perception of police is based on personal history. What to do the police offer (that's positive) to people who are at the bottom ranks of our society? Are they focusing on providing that SERVICE?
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I personally witnessed a situation I thought the police handled poorly a couple of years ago at the waterfront. Some skinny kid in his late teens jumped off a large boat parked by the waterfront and started swimming. He may have been trying to burglarize the boat. The police fished him out of the water and 4 burly cops surrounded him. It was obvious that he was high on something. When he didn't promptly obey their commands, instead of just cuffing him, those four big cops twisted and pinched and yelled at that poor kid.
There objective seemed to be to punish him for not obeying them, not to move the situation forward. Finally they cuffed him and put him in a patrol car. It was unnecessary and could have resulted in some injuries for him -
Please fix your web site! Your add comments word counter is completely screwed up. We can't post!
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The counter is accurate - so accurate that it counts all the extra code that microsoft office/word hides at the top of a document! (see your comment above for an example of this) If you wish to write a post in office/word/some other word processor, please copy and paste your comment into notepad(pc) or textedit(mac), and then paste it into a TOL comment box. This should get rid of any extra code, and thus make the letter counter more accurate.
We're working on a solution to automatically strip out microsoft code when pasting into the TOL comment box.
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I believe in some cases (on PCs in certain browsers) if you press Ctrl-Shift-V when pasting into the comment box it might get rid of the extra code.
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This comment has been removed by the TOL staff.
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Comments are now closed.
I used to be ambivalent/negative about the police in general - most of my experiences were based on exceeding the maximum speed limit and resulted in a fine, public embarrassment and higher insurance premiums.
A recent experience has pushed me to be more supportive of local law enforcement, however.
I was invited on a "ride-along" with a Portland Police officer. This involved going to a briefing and patrolling her district in inner SE Portland. I was shocked by the professionalism of my officer despite being verbally abused, physically assaulted and sexually harassed by the citizens that she vowed to protect & serve. She put herself in harm's way several times throughout the evening to protect the people in Portland that, at best, are ambivalent about her profession.
Of course there are bad cops (just like there are bad teachers, politicians, judges, etc.), but from news coverage, you'd think that at least half of them are jack-booted thugs. I learned that at least 99%+ of the police officers protecting us are very good people ... and never receive an iota of gratitude for the sacrifices they make on our behalf.
If you're ambivalent or negative about the Portland Police, I would encourage you to become an informed critic. Here's the link to the ride-along request form: http://www.portlandonline.com/Police/index.cfm?a=41803&c=50416