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For the last couple of days we've discussed issues with one main thing in common — guns. We were in Waldport on Friday talking about the Lincoln City police officer Steven Dodds who was shot and critically wounded during a traffic stop — and the continuing search for the suspect David Durham. Then on Monday we talked about the one year anniversary of the death of Aaron Campbell, who was shot and killed by Portland police.
These stories follow so many others. There was the mass shooting in Arizona early in January, when six people were killed and 12 others, including Representative Gabrielle Giffords, were injured. That's led to this news today:
New York City sent undercover investigators to an Arizona gun show and found instances in which private sellers sold semiautomatic pistols even after buyers said they probably could not pass background checks, city officials said.
Then there's this story from over the weekend, closer to home:
A middle-school aged boy who was accidentally shot by his friend Sunday remains hospitalized this morning, Oregon City police said.
The victim's condition and exact age were unavailable this morning. Oregon City police Lt. Jim Band said the victim's friend was playing with a 12-gauge shotgun that he thought was unloaded when it fired, critically wounding his friend.
The mother of the boy who fired the gun was in the home at the time but in another room. The boy, whose age was not available this morning, and his father had been duck hunting the day before, Band said. "The kid messed around with a gun he think is unloaded but it's not," Band said.
A 2005 Gallup poll found that about 40% of Americans have guns in their home. All of these stories, and so many more, have lead us to wonder: who owns guns, and why?
Do you own a gun? For what purpose? Where did you get it? If you have it for protection do you keep it at your bedside, or locked in a safe? Have you ever pulled it out? Have you ever fired it? If you have kids, what do you tell them about your gun?
GUESTS:
- Michael Knoetig: Owner, MK Tactical Guns and Training
- Trisha Whitfield: Section director for Identification Services with the Oregon State Police
- Penny Okamoto: Executive Director, Ceasefire Oregon
- Kevin Starrett: President, Oregon Firearms Federation
Photo credit: Geoffrey Fairchild / Creative Commons
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I do not own a gun - when I was six I found the key to my fathers gun cabinet. I had to show them to my friends.. Luckily nobody was hurt and the guns were not loaded.
Last month my son and I came out of the 24 hour fitness @ 11:30 pm in the Hollywood district. As we were pulling out of the parking lot someone ran up to the car, pulled a gun out, pointed it at us. We were able to drive away without injury.
Would I own a gun now, I don't think so.
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Sure! I might own a gun. Or, again I might not. With everything posted on the Internet now under FBI surveillance (illegal by their own admission) anyone that admits to owning a gun and where and how maintained could receive a midnight visit by the FBI or some member of the Homeland Security civilian snoop force Big Sis is organizing.
Under the hysterical circumstances prevailing in ultra liberal Oregon, I don't think it would be wise to voluntarily give up as much private info as this topic discussion is asking for.
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Good point, both personal and legal risk in answering the questions posed... Firearm's owners should stay home on this one.
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Help me out with this one, Gereng... Presuming you pass the background check it isn’t illegal to own a gun in Oregon. What is your concern?
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good point and good warning gereng >>. admit nothing about gun ownership
and his concern is the the progressive totalitarians who, knowing better than others what is best for them, would subjugate your for your own good
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Some People are more Paranoid than Others. Unfortunately the most paranoid find comfort in owning and packing a pistol. And in their mental state are also more likely to use it to ambush an imagined foe, like the State Trooper, FBI agent or Big Brother.
Circular logic: I have a Magnum Desert Eagle Pistol, the most powerful handgun in history. Now, everyone wants to take it away from me and rob me of my power. And I have to be wary of EVERYONE. Shoot first ask questions later. Must keep my precious....
Gun owners are the most Paranoid and Insecure members of our Society. Read some internet posting on Survivalist Blogs. And their guns do little to assuage their fears.
Paranoid complexes will not be cured by guns. Professional counseling may be helpful.
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Now I feel better, yesterday I was in complete agreement with Gareng's posting.
While I do support 2nd ammendment rights and think it is as simple as when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns, I do take exception with the fact that you are again throwing out outrageous statements. Specifically, about any possibility of the FBI or Homeland Security making any midnight visits to gun owners. Paranoid statements are what lead some people to terms like "gun nuts".
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Sarah, to clear up your confusion you need to think like a lawyer... perception is everything...
"Do you own a gun?" A public forum's records are documentation for any future effort (on the part of the government or a burgler) to relieve a person of one of their possessions.
"For what purpose?" Again, records of a person's comment on a public forum can be used as evidence if the firearm is later used in a manner other than stated.
"Where did you get it?" Gray area's abound around firearm's laws and enforcement is haphazard... an inherited firearm that wasn't re-registered (or perhaps a war trophy)... an unregistered gift given years ago or purchased at a gun show before current laws were in place... or something someone made in their garage. If a person isn't absolutely sure, best not to discuss it.
"Where do you keep it" See the comment to the first question... there's also a legal aspect in that a public comment as to a person's firearms storage habits could be a liability in court.
"A person's kids and firearms" No doubt CPS will be interested in these answers.
Firearms ownership can be such an inflammatory topic (instant polarization) that it's best to keep a low profile.
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Jacob, it would be wise for you to learn the difference between prudence and paranoia... your sweeping generalizations are offensive and only serve to deepen the privacy concerns of firearms owners and provide added justification to those "survivalist websites" you frequent.
If you want the "paranoia" to end, stop the persecution and start enabling a safe harbor to discuss the issue.
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rethomas writes:
"If you want the "paranoia" to end, stop the persecution"
Which is a prima fascie argument that you ARE paranoid.
American gun owners are the least persecuted "minority" on the planet.
And paranoids with guns ...?
GREAT idea.
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hartwms, nice job of taking a narrowly focused comment and globalizing it... generally labelling a group negatively (e.g., paranoid) is an act of persecution akin to the negative labels historically associated with other groups of people that parts of society didn't like.
Unfortunately you missed the point (my apologies if it was too obtuse)... we're never going to come to the middle and have any kind of meaningful dialog until we all stop tossing verbal grenades at one another. Labeling someone a "paranoid" regardless of whether they are or not isn't going to get us there.
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There is one thing that I am militantly and aggressively opposed to: VIOLENCE.
Physical violence, manual abuse, knives and guns have never solved anything. And I cannot kowtow or pretend to seek common ground with such knuckle heads. I am for free speech, but you can shoot me and I will not return fire.
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It will be interesting to see just how many Firearm owners will post on OPB when the troll is so blatant. As tragic as these cherry-picked local events are, about 115-people die in car accidents in the USA every day. Where is the outrage? Where in the curiosity on why? The Automobile is a far more deadly inanimate object then the Firearm and yet I have yet to see:
Do you own a Car? For what purpose? Where did you get it? If you have it for necessity do you keep it at your curbside, or locked in a Garage? Have you ever pulled it out? Have you ever driven it? If you have kids, what do you tell them about your car?
Why then has OPB (et-al) not shown similar “Curiosity” into a machine that kills and injures more people the “Gun”. Where is the introspection as to why when you are far more likely to be injured, maimed or killed by the “Car” you fear the “Gun”.
Oh, it must be a rating period! -
lol >.best to be mum >. you dont wanna get rothenfluched
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Excellent post. As long as we are asking rhetorical questions, what were "undercover investigators" from New York City doing in Arizona? Assuming they were law enforcement, shouldn't these investigators have been enforcing the law in New York instead?
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Guns are a topic because a car's purpose is to transport people and goods. Accidental death is an unfortunate side effect. What is the purpose of a gun? Solely, to injure or kill -- and it's not always accidental.
To some, the idea of owning something that has no other purpose than destruction of another living being is alarming. And, if we start talking about handguns over rifles, these are made only to be used against other humans. With murder against the law, why allow people to own an object that has no other purpose?
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Wow, really? Do you need a gun to get to work or to take your kids to school? Most people die in cars due to inattention and drug (alcohol mostly) use.
Please think a bit more..a friend of mine had a gun in his home for personal safety and his son (a depressed young man) used his dad's gun to end his own life at 14 yrs. old..if there was no gun in the home, that likely would not have happened.
You don't hear a lot about teens or depressed people driving their cars off a cliff to committ suicide, but you sure hear about the guns, don't you?
Please think a bit more friend..we may have a very false sense of security with these guns.
For our biblical quoters, "Live by the sword, die by the sword"; my example above proves this correct. THINK
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Did Desolation say rant. That's my queue!
I own a car. I use the car to drive around and eat while I talk on my mobile. I got the car from an auto dealer because stealing cars is frowned upon in this jurisdiction.
I lock the car in the garage to keep the Oregon four-letter-word off it, but I bring it out to polish it up and worship it. I loves my car and I'm guaranteed ownership by the second amendment to the Bill of Rights of the United States of 'merica. (Queue Star Spangled Banner.)
I "sponsored" my children in my car.
My kids understand that I use my car to pollute the environment and get fat and unhealthy. But they're too young to learn about using cars to hunt people who blithely operate conveyances whilst yacking on their mobiles.
What double standard? It's alright for me to talk on my mobile when I drive because I'm a responsible, trained and certifiable mobile owner.
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So trurl, are you saying that we should do away with Driver's training and Driver's Licenses?
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To Soggy above,
Who knows what is going to happen in this country? Do you? I certain don't. What we do know for certain is that our Govt is now considered by some UN agency that collects this kind of data- as rapidly becoming a policy state. Warrantless searches, unlawful surveillance, are becoming commonplace. The FBI recently admitted to over 40,000 illegal acts by its own officers.
The public policy wonks who study these issues believe that as our economic situation spirals downward respect for our Constitutional rights will decline to a point of No Return. The actual paranoia affects our leadership, not we poor, sheep-like inhabitants of Flyover Land.
There is certainly nothing paranoid about an intelligent concern with a tendency in law enforcement and the courts that is clearly recognized by the ACLU and other similar organizations who track these matters and chart trends.
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@themadheather:
"Solely, to injure or kill -- and it's not always accidental."
Buy a dictionary and look up "deterrent".
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DanLoder: your friends son would also be alive if your friend had kept his firearms in a safe or vault.
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Does a gun make your home safer? Interesting statistic:
FOR GUNS INVOLVED IN FATAL SHOOTINGS: SUICIDES ARE MORE THAN THREE TIMES MORE LIKELY THAN KILLING IN SELF DEFENSE. CDC Report 1997
GUNOWNERS: You are 3X more likely to kill yourself and your family than any bad guy. --Do you drink? Are you prone to sadness or depression? Do you ever lose your temper? Are your teens annoying? Is your gun loaded and conveniently located?
It is like having an army, who at the first hint of an approaching enemy, chamber their weapons and promptly commit suicide. It is pretty confusing for their adversaries.
If you have a mortal enemy and you wish him ill. Give him a sexy, new Glock pistol and ammo. He is more likely to kill himself than to hunt you down.
We have met them enemy, and he is us.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/ss/ss5904.pdf
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using your liblogic I must agree >. unstable, illogical, touchy feely libs should not own guns
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Or, you can realize that using a firearm in self defense dose not necessarily mean having to shoot an aggressor. The studies vary from 10,000 to 200,000 incidents of self defense with a firearm per year.
Considering the number of firearms owned by average people in America the most likely thing to happen is - nothing bad.
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What in the world are you talking about?
Interesting statistic: I am 3X more likely to be abducted by aliens than to believe a statistic. Data is science, statistics are often politics.
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This is an extremely common fallacy. Notice what the words say: "Suicides are three times more likely than KILLING in self defense."
The fallacy is this: you don't have to KILL your attacker to defend yourself. Statistically, only 0.1 % (that's 1/10th of 1%) of defensive uses of a gun result in the attacker being killed.
That means that 99.9% of defensive uses of a gun are not figured into your statement.
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Men are more apt to commit suicide than women, and men usually have access to a gun. Rarely does a man check-out using poison (pills). Ergo...
There are over 310 million people, all connected via our electronic marvels. If someone in North Dakota whacks his kid's bottom everyone with a TV or Internet connection will know it within 12 hrs. I doubt there is any more shootings per 1000 today than fifty yrs ago. Just better record keeping and everyone knows everything that happens, almost anywhere.
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Sarah...simple prudence.
Surely that is a concept you are familar with? We live in strange times with a Govt that seems bent on ignoring or violating our Constitutional safeguards. Fear mongering has become a high art in official circles, and among the compliant media. Fear of gun ownership by private individuals by a cetain segment of the public is leading inexorably to their confiscation. It is only a matter of time.
FDR woke up one morning and declared the ownership of gold illegal and had it all confiscated by executive order. It was clearly an unconstitutional act. That fact had no bearing on what happened.
I think the way this discussion issue is coming up at this time when it is surrounded by so much hysteria is purposeful and possibly moderated by people who oppose all forms of gun ownership.
Anyone who wants to is perfectly free to post whatever personal info of this nature they desire. My view of the topic like that of everyone else is purely a personal one. And No, Sarah, I do not have a criminal record of any kind, not even a traffic violation.
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I grew up in a rural area, and got my first gun (.22 rifle) when I was eleven years old. My dad owned several guns, which were kept in an unlocked gun case in our living room. I'm 37 years old and currently live in Portland and own 11 guns - which I have mainly purchased at a local gun shop. I own guns for recreational purposes (target shooting), hunting, and self defense. I keep a gun near my bedside and the rest stored in a dedicated area of the house. While I've never had to use a gun for self defense, I live in a high crime neighborhood and it's not uncommon to hear gunshots during the night at least a couple times a year. I practice shooting often and hunt a couple times a year - I have literally fired thousands and thousands of rounds throughout my lifetime.
I agree with a previous commenter that guns aren't any more inherently dangerous than your car. However, both guns and cars can be dangerous if people haven't been taught how to use them - or if they are handled like "toys". As my dad taught me, I will teach my kids two basic rules about gun use - 1. never point a gun at something you're not willing to shoot, even if you're absolutely sure it's not loaded 2. always treat a gun as if it's loaded, even if you're absolutely sure it's not loaded.
There are a lot of misconceptions about guns and gun owners. When it comes down to it, the right to own a gun is a constitutional right which will never be taken away. Gun ownership is not the problem. However, discussions of gun control are often at the center of what should be a discussion about poverty, addiction, and crime in this country.
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I think we may have been separated at birth! I would like to second your comment. I am the same age and have the same background. Growing up with guns, I never had an unsettled curiosity for them. If I wanted to shoot, I would go with my father to the range. I never felt like I had to sneak them or show friends. If I did handle a firearm, it would never be pointed at anything I wasn’t willing to destroy.
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If we were to earnestly focus our attention on the issues of poverty, addiction, and crime, we wouldn't even be having this discussion about guns. By providing an easy target (pun intended), the gun debate diverts our attention away from these much more complicated issues - it's a lazy person's argument for what ails us.
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Well said.
OMG, I also fit this profile almost exactly! I grew up on a farm and learned how to properly handle firearms at a very young age and learned those same two very valuable rules early on (around 6 years old). I will teach my children the same thing. Taking the mystery and taboo out of firearms HELPS save kids. The news stories about the tragedy in Oregon City all ran rules like “lock them up”, “keep ammo and guns separately”, and the stupidest one of all “talk to your kids about guns. Tell them to NEVER touch one.” Have you met ANY children that aren’t intrigued by anything they aren’t supposed to be touching? Be it alcohol, cigarettes or firearms. Just teach them true respect for firearms, take the mystery away and kids will respect firearms.
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Folks think you are nuts when you use the constitution to defend you right to bear arms. The second amendment is short, to the point and cannot be legally challenged. I respect your right to free speech. Please respect my right to defend your rights. Also, please please please don’t infringe on my rights to defend myself and my family. The main argument I hear for gun control is “we don’t need guns we have the police”. Then why is the sheriff’s department the biggest publicly elected advocate for gun rights? They promote responsible, safe gun ownership and provide citizens with concealed carry permits because they are on the front line. Some hipster on Belmont hasn’t witnessed the aftermath of a violent rape and therefore does not understand. And god forbid, we live through a situation where law enforcement cannot protect us (like L.A. riots or hurricane Katrina). Thanks but no thanks. I will choose to protect myself. If police response time is more than 3 hours, how will you protect yourself? Gun control is not up for debate. If we make guns illegal than only people that don’t respect laws will have them! That is a simple and frightening concept. I want folks to read this so I won’t even go into the fact that the USA has never been invaded or overthrown???? Hello! It is in our blood to defend ourselves.
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With all the yammering between the pro/anti gun crowd, the role of sport shooting is being hammered to dust. I live in Portland, I don't need a weapon, but I really enjoy the precision of shooting. I enjoy the craft of a mechanism as crisp as a clock, but hard enough to take thousands of "hammer blows". I miss the days when high schools and summer camps had rifle ranges. I admire the devoted national or Olympic shooter. Name a better spot for a home grown Biathlete (OK-Colorado, now name another). I understand the simle joy of perferating a pop can. One more nickle gone.
Have all the angry arguments you want. Please don't outlaw fun.
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Heroin is fun too.
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I have owned and carried (with a license) a gun for many years and commute between three states each month. I do not display it and most of my employees do not even know I carry. It is for protection of both me, my staff and on the road any potential threat. Often I camp out en-route in the summer as I have little time "off" and enjoy camping. I also have it at my bedside when home. My wife and all relatives in and around the home have been trained in the safe use of it. I have never had the need to use it and hope I don't. I also take a refresher class every three of four years to keep up on the legal requirements. Although I hope I never need to use it, if the situation arises, I hope I can reduce any potential injuries or loss of life BY using it.
Look at Mexico to see that gun control does not work. I also spend a lot of time there (without a gun) and the only people there that have guns are the people you NEED to worry about.
I am for registration and a three to five day waiting period for handguns. I'm also a avid NPR listener!
Keep up the good work.
SG
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"Look at Mexico to see that gun control does not work."
By the same logic, look at crime statistics to see that laws don't work, look at disease statistics to see that medicine doesn't work, and look at food poisoning statistics to see that cooking doesn't work.
Seriously, if you don't (seemingly) understand rational argument, how comforted can I be that you bray about owning a gun?
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Do you own a gun? No, I own several. For what purpose? For every legal purpose that one would own a firearm. Where did you get it? I've purchased guns at shows, over the internet, from individuals, and from dealers. If you have it for protection do you keep it at your bedside, or locked in a safe? Both. Have you ever pulled it out? No. Have you ever fired it? Many, many times. If you have kids, what do you tell them about your gun? I have nieces and nephews ranging in age from 6 to 20. I tell them to not jerk the trigger, to pull through smoothly.
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I own several guns. I own them for recreation, as collector's items, and for self-defense. I purchased all of them legally through fedarally-licensed firearms dealers. I keep a handgun locked in a mini safe at my bedside. My other guns are locked in a full-size safe. I have never pulled my gun out in self-defense and pray daily that the need never arises. I have fired my guns many, many times at paper and steel targets on legal firing ranges. I teach my young children the NRA's Eddie Eagle gun safety program (STOP! Don't touch. Leave the area. Tell an adult.). When my children are older, I will teach them to safely shoot. I am personally opposed to hunting, but I would never deny other sportspersons their right to responsibly engage in the hunting tradition.
Having worked in public safety for many years, I know that there are a small minority of people who will disregard any law. An even smaller minority is absolutely psychopathic (e.g. Jared Lee Loughner). Because nobody is 100% sure of who or where these particular people are at any given time - and because I'm 100% sure that I'm not one of them - I own a gun to protect my family. Although some people do use guns to kill others, I do not believe that the number of guns or gun laws has any correlation to the number of psychopaths, gangsters, etc. in circulation in our society. That might help explain why gun ownership has increased while crime rates have simultaneously fallen over the past several decades.
You can protect your family however you choose. I will protect mine by the best means possible: education, communication, a healthy environment, prayer, and a gun.
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This topic has a way of inciting anger. I try to understand both sides. I live in Portland, and day to day I don’t feel the need to carry. My brother and some friends are police officers and when we have two shootings in a month I understand the pain. But this right to bear arms is much deeper than playing dirty harry in the streets. It is as important as our freedom of speech, in fact the first amendment would not be possible without the second. Our forefathers valued this and I feel some of us that have never suffered may dwindle this liberty away. If we wish, or vote this right away we will never get it back. Put away your anger and Just try to philosophize this for one moment. Would the French revolution have happened if the American experiment didn’t work? Would England have become a democracy? Folks site Europe when talking gun control. Well I site the right to bear arms as fundamental in the creation of democracy. And it is fundamental to maintain democracy. I may be wrong, but what if I am right. Are you willing to gamble your freedom, or the freedom of your children? If our civilized country has a major economic, political or natural disaster, what’s in your closet? The USSR fell, and so can we. Liberals are educated folks. Does anybody know what kind of hell it was to live in Kazakhstan when the Soviet Union fell? A friend’s father worked for the government, militant groups were executing everybody from the government. This was a communist country, they were not supposed to have guns, but they did. I can site hundreds of other examples (Pol Pot, Hitler, Slobodan Milošević,) I think you get the point. This hasn’t happened in the US, because of Our Right to Bear Arms. Trust me, I don’t think it is fair for some psycho to take out a senator, a judge and a kid, but it pales in comparison to what could happen if free people can’t defend freedom. thanks
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I have been shooting since I was 8 growing up in Canada. I have lived in the Portland metro area for the last 26 years. After a hiatus of 8 years I started shooting again and for the last 10 years have been doing it in local and national competitions. I shoot anywhere from 10,000 to 30,000 rounds a year in classes, practice and competition.
3 years ago I began assisting teaching classes introducing people to competitive shooting. America seems to be experiencing a resurgence in competitive shooting led by the action shooting sports. Most people don't realize that all over this country thousands of people get together every weekend, shooting tens of thousands of rounds without any injuries.
The left has labeled everyone who chooses to own a firearm for self defense as "afraid". I for one am tired of hearing it. Am I afraid because I wear a seat belt, own a fire extinguisher and keep a first aid kit around? I worked in EMS for 15 years in Clackamas County and realize that it is not a Mexican border city but bad things are done by bad people. Some of those bad things are stopped by good people because they had a firearm.
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Gun will beat baseball bat 99.99% of the time:
Steven Hayes, 47, and Joshua Komisarjevsky, 30, are accused of raping and murdering Mrs Hawke-Petit and killing daughters Hayley, 17, and 11-year-old Michaela in an attack in their Connecticut home in July 2007.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1312686/Too-late-Massacred-Connecticut-family-saved-Police-reacted-quicker-jury-told.html#ixzz1CiyjiEOH -
Oregon city: 32-year old Joseph Ryan Pankonin was killed last night in a home invasion robbery.
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TACOMA, Wash. - Three people have been charged and are in custody in connection with last week's home-invasion robbery in which an Edgewood father was killed.
The suspects are identified as Kiyoshi Alan Higashi, 22; Joshua Nathan Reese, 20; and Amanda Christine Knight, 21. They were arrested in Daly City, near San Francisco over the weekend.
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VANCOUVER -- A Gresham man was sentenced to what will amount to life in prison today for his role in a August 2005 Vancouver home invasion that left the homeowner seriously injured and his friend dead of gun shot wounds. 
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Here is what I posted over at WHYS on the topic "Should Mubarak stand down":
"Yes he should stand down."
"And if anyone is still unclear about what Conservative leaders mean when they talk about "small government", the media, experts, and analysts keep referring to Mubarak as "very Conservative" and a "Dictator who rules with an Iron Fist"."
"In my opinion that is what Cheney worked to create in the US as the innocuous sounding "Unitary Executive", ruling through executive orders, often secret, and often in contradiction to what the Congress passed as Laws, in other words, a dictator."
"I think that the US and the rest of the West need to stop supporting and financing "Conservative" leaders like Mubarak, because that is contrary to the US ideals of Participatory Democracy in which the Power resides in The People and leaders only Govern with the Consent of The People through Free and Fair Elections."
And that is also why I think Americans should adopt the Swiss model of gun training and ownership, to prevent any Conservative takeover of the US government and returning us to rule by any form of "small government", whether king, dictator, tsar, un-elected president, etc.
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We may not always agree on the politics, but I wholeheartedly agree with your suggestion :-)
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Calm your angst. All is well.
http://www.elinagaranca.com/en/video
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Steven Hayes, convicted of a brutal 2007 home invasion in which a Connecticut mother and her two daughters were killed, was sentenced Thursday to die for the crime.
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The Swiss men who (still) have a compulsory army service, which consisits of a 17 weeks basic training and repeating service periods of 2-3 weeks untill they are about 40 years old. Since decades this meant that every member of the military keeps a machine gun with ammunition at their home.
Surprisingly there are relatively few incidents involving abuse of this practice (at least compared to the US...) even though they are used to threaten women and/or to comitt suicide every so often.
As the cold war is over and the Russians are not waltzing across the borders anytime soon there is really no need for this outdated practice even though it is a 'holy cow' issue for many men...
On February 13th the Swiss are now voting on a national initiative to abolish this and have all army issued guns stored in central military depots. Of course this has provoked very emotional and often irrational discussions all over the country and the US is often used as an example for both sides of the issue.
As a dual citizen and a longtime peace activist, I of course hope for a positive outcome of the vote...but at the moment it looks like it may be a very tight race.
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Hi, I am a gun owner, but I'm not the average gun nut you guys probably think of. I'm a mid-20s software engineer who has lived in cities all his life. I was introduced to firearms in college when some of my friends bought some old surplus rifles from WWII and I was like "hey, guns are cool!" Ever since then I have been collecting firearms, mostly ones that are either used by militaries today or have been used by militaries in the past.
I am not a hunter or anything, but I compete in practical shooting competitions almost every weekend. This involves pistols, shotguns, and those scary black modern rifles. I also enjoy taking tactical or defensive shooting classes to increase my skill and learn new methods.
In addition to competition, I have a concealed carry permit and carry a pistol almost everywhere I go for self defense.
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thank you for allowing an intelligent person to break the ice on this topic.
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While I don't currently own a gun, I will in the future. I grew up with firearms being a totally normal thing not unlike any other tool, drill, hammer, or etc. It's a tool that enables people to do things. My father was in law enforcement and is a long time hunter. We were taught how serious a tool it was, to respect what it can do, and that they were NOT for play. They were not hidden away from us kids. I think that's a terrible idea. Hiding things we fear from children only serves to keep them in the dark, or worse, forbidden fruit territory. Educate instead.
Why not include some clips about the instances where guns have been valuable, saved the day, and otherwise got the right job done? Those stories exist. But do they shape the conversation the right way? Most people don't want to hear those stories. (It's like how we only hear about pit bulls attacking people and not golden retreivers or poodles.)
A gun never caused a single injury or murder. People do that. People have decisions to make. They can make those decisions with a hammer or a saw too.
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40% of us have some diagnosable mental illness including alcoholism, illegal drug addiction, depression, paranoia, anxiety disorder, personality disorders or schizophrenia. Half of these remain UNDIAGNOSED.
Many gun buyers are mentally unstable.
Imagine if 40% of the gun owners are 'crazy.' We would have a lot of problems like schizophrenic assassins, drug dealer shoot-outs on the border, paranoids assaulting police officers with guns, and teen-agers accidentally shotgunning their friend's face off. But we don't see such things.
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Did 40% of the scientists who conducted the study to determine the 40% have mental illnesses themselves? If so, their findings are suspect.
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I own a gun, and am extremely frustrated by the requirement of many of the (best) shooting ranges around town which REQUIRE an NRA membership-- it may have been at one time, but currently the NRA is distinctly *not* a safety-focused or training organization, but an intensely political organization heavily engaged in a fear-based lobbying campaign.
I'd love to see ranges around Portland drop this antiquated requirement in favor of a more modern organization or certification promoting safe, responsible use of firearms.
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That bothered me too actually. I went ahead and got an NRA membership because it was worth it to be able to go to a private range where I can get an entire pistol bay to myself. I can drag out the barrels and IPSC targets and practice running my own stages and stuff. Public ranges always have annoying range officers that don't let you draw from a holster or don't let you fire more than one shot every 3 seconds or something like that. Fortunately NRA membership is inexpensive so it isn't a big deal, I just kind of hate all the junk mail they send.
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I think there should be a non-Conservative version of the NRA.
I used to be a member but I quit because the NRA kept supporting Conservative Republicans without any consideration of what the those CRs supported besides gun rights. The NRA has turned into a bastion of far right wing, anti-government gun nuts and responsible gun owners really do need an alternative to the NRA.
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Tom, I concur. There must be another choice.
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It is hard to put your finger on any kind of trigger as to why people own guns. These machines of certainty are one of kind, there are no other comparable devices to make inferences from. Guns kill, and that is the only thing they do, that is their entire purpose. Even if one uses them as a form of entertainment through target practice, that entertainment is ultimately a kind of training, a kind of preparation, and surely there are other, smarter, ways to entertain yourself. People rarely own guns as a practical means to self-defense---not in this country, not in this time period, not in a place that is ultimately very safe, and would be much safer if Pandora was simply put back in her pathetic, paranoid box. Guns are controversial hot-buttons, because they are the epitome of brute, cowboy thinking, that is all so many are sadly capable of---that is the prevailing reason the majority of people own guns, all these other cockamamie ideas as to why people own guns are a ruse.
Guns are a style, they are an aesthetic of a people gone wrong, they are a mascot for a people so in love with themselves that their alleged childish ‘right’ to own a killing machine supersedes the safety of everyone else. There is really nothing pertinent to say to these people, there is no reasoning that can work on sagging minds so thoroughly infected with delusions of red, white and blue grandeur. Oh, the irony of it all, going to war to stop these mythical weapons of mass destruction, but in our own backyards the same monkeys promoting the war want the right to carry their metal bananas.
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Why do our nation's police officers carry guns? There are a lot of cockamamie ideas such as to protect themselves, citizens, etc. We could save a lot of money in public safety if they were armed with fruit and vegetables instead.
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Guns are psychological magnets for violence. Guns serve no purpose in the quality of life I pursue. I'm concerned I would use guns inappropriately under duress.
Guns tend to imbue gun owners with a false sense of security. Guns provide the weak with false courage. They get in over their heads because they haven't thought through their actions.
I do not hunt or feel inclined to defend myself so there is little reason to own guns.
Were I to own a gun for self preservation then I must be psychologically prepared and trained to use it.
If I used a gun to defend my home the probability is high I would end up in jail instead of the criminal(s). My faith that our current justice system would work correctly is strained.
I was pulled over by police while riding my bike. They wondered if the air pump in my pack was a weapon. Scared police equal over-reactive police.
I don't blame police for being defensive as events in Rainier and Walport have unfolded. But a few police become drunk with false power when they abuse citizens.
Those I emulate have set non-violence as the foundation of their being and it gives my life meaning to join their ranks. Peace through superior - peace.
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Truly sounds like a personal problem. If you have such grave concerns about your impulse control you should also seek help.
Obviously the vast majority of firearm owners don't have such issues or there would be many orders of magnitude more incidents of inappropriate use.
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The NRA teaches safety.
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Why is it that people are so concerned about their personal safety when crime rates are at historic lows? Then again, why even have the discussion? We as a nation have decided that incidents such as the one in Tucson are acceptable, if regretable, while we seem to be arming ourselves to the teeth.
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I grew up with guns in rural New Zealand (at last count the immediate family owned 45 guns.) I don't know the stats offhand but I would think gun ownership would be similiar to that here in the US although gun-related homicides are very, very rare in New Zealand.
There are significant differences to gun ownership in New Zealand. Hand guns and concealed carry don't exist. Another significant difference is that to get a gun license you are interviewed face-to-face by a police officer and require two references.
I've lived in Oregon 2 years, don't own a gun and don't intend to. I can't imagine shooting a person, not even an intruder in my house. -
What? Anyone can buy and use a gun without having been properly trained? There goes the car argument, since ALL people using a car, by law, MUST prove they are able to do so.
Ok, have your guns, ONLY IF, you are properly trained/licensed.
If your gun causes harm to others, are you willing, as the owner of said gun, willing to be held accountable for anything that happens with it??? Then, are you willing to convince your NRA brothers to do the same? If so, please help to educate gun users and you will have much more support and respect from those who don't support you now.
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we dont have to. but thanks.
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Who is this lady guest? She is so automatically defensive!
Guns are NOT MADE to kill people any more than kitchen knives or a chainsaw is made to kill people. It's a tool that you can hurt or kill someone with. There's a huge difference.
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Sorry friend, guns ARE made to kill things; think about "hollow point" bullets for Maximum damage to flesh. A chainsaw is not made to kill people and neither are kitchen knives. Chainsaws were MADE to cut trees for firewood and wood to make your home.
Kitchen knives cut your favorite foods, right?
Guns are made to kill things. It's quite clear. Do Soldiers take chainsaws to the battlefield?
Perhaps you are confusing "Chainsaw Massacre" and "Slasher" movies with the reality of what guns are used for every single day, to kill and maim.
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A gun’s sole purpose is to kill people, that is its complete intent, its complete architecture. A kitchen knife is made to be used to cut things in a kitchen. A chainsaw is made to cut things down or apart. In what way do you envision that a gun meets the requirements of being that kind of tool? Or of being commensurate with a kitchen knife? What other viable function do you suggest a gun has? Perhaps, you will next be suggesting, that an atomic bomb is the new garden spade! And, really where do you draw the line with these false comparisons?
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Chainsaws kill trees. Kitchen knives SEVER food or meat (an animal). Yes they do kill things. Gun kill THINGS, and they can kill people. A 2x4 can kill someone. You can kill someone with many things if the conditions are right.
It comes down to a decision, a choice! Everytime.
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And how many people have been killed or seriously injured with a baseball bat? We should probably have background checks for those too...
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Yes, I've also heard that Looks can kill..
Do you agree that gun owners should be trained and licensed, every single time and that if something happens with their gun, they are responsible?
I am NOT against guns, really. I AM for accountability for irresponsible owners of guns..if YOUR gun kills a person, YOU go to jail (unless it was stolen, etc.).
Can we agree about that one?
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Nobody ever cooked a meal with a gun. Nobody ever built a house out of guns.
If you are correct in your beliefs, making a rational (and not a specious) argument OUGHT to be a simple matter.
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Wow. Does a chainsaw also kill dead 2x4s? Or, does it kill that ugly, enormous, purple sofa in the living room when you chop it apart? How terribly awkward to introduce the notion that a tree is living, and this, somehow, makes it similar to the fact that a gun is intended to kill. A baseball bat is, dare I say it, made to play baseball with---it wouldn’t exist if baseball didn’t. How can you make a similar claim about a gun? What other thing would you use a gun for? Paperweight? But, wait, that wouldn’t be responsible or safe.
Hey, how about this one, is a finger designed for the same reason as a tampon because you can use it to stop the flow from a dike? If you happen to use a tampon to stop your village from flooding, because your finger swells up and you are tired, it doesn’t mean that the tampon was invented first to plug dikes. A tampon exists for another purpose entirely, just like a knife can also kill people, but it is not made for that reason. A gun is made for the primary, and really the only reason, that it can kill people, guns that can’t do this are usually loaded with water and used by children at parties. And, water-guns are not really the same are they? So far, I can’t imagine another practical task around the house that you can accomplish with a handgun. Can you?
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@ Dan Loder: holow point bullets are also made to not go through anything but your target. so you dont hurt bystanders.
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The comparison between cars and guns, a favorite of the pro-gun crowd, is entirely specious. Cars are not designed for lethality. Guns are. The responsibility to control lethal substances and objects is self evident. How would the pro gun guest think about the freedom to own anthrax spores?
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Cars are also highly regulated.
Seatbelts, carseats, license age, driving under the influence, speed limits and other traffic laws, ethanol content in gasoline, etc... Is anyone saying "...they're trying to take away your right to drive!"?
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The main difference is that driving is a privilege, while gun ownership is a right.
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I have come to think that the way ahead is the way through. I think that training in gun safety and the responsible use of guns ought to be required of all children at an appropriate age. That will help get past any fascination with guns and help take away the fear of guns that so many people have who have not been trained.
And then any kid who stays interested in guns can be recognized and directed into appropriate shooting programs, whether shotgun, rifle, or pistol, biathlon, air rifle, muzzle loader, or whatever.
And along the same lines, I would like to see a Secular Humanist version of The Boy Scouts. I was a Boy Scout long ago and I think it was valuable but the Conservatives have taken the organization over and taken it to the far right.
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I am a gun owner in support of stronger and more responsible gun control regulations.
First off, my right not to get shot by some nutter with a beef is more important to me than that nutter's right to own an assault rifle, or 9mm with a 30 round magazine.
We hear about shootings constantly, but we rarely hear of anyone saving themselves or their family because they had a gun on hand. Quite often it's the reverse, the shooters know the people they shoot. Who's protecting the home from them?
Others, like the kid in Tucson, are just angry with the government, with society, and feel it's okay to bypass the democratic process and excercise their "second amendment option"... The fear and anxiety they feel is very similar to some of the paranoid pro-gun rhetoric we hear from groups like the NRA (see above: the FBI is reading this right now!).
I also feel strongly that something has to be done to stop the illegal exportation of guns to Mexico. Some feel it's their right not only to own high caliber assault weapons, but to export that right (at a profit) to a country where guns are highly regulated. That exportation supports murder, mass-murder, drug trafficking, kidnapping and terrorism just across the border to our south. We can't ask Mexico to crack down on the drugs entering the US without first stopping the flow of weapons that are then used to kill off the very forces trying to stop the drugs.
I do believe people in this country have a right to own guns, but I also believe we, as a society, have a right to regulate that ownership for the greater good.
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Well first off, to own an assault rifle you have to pay a $200 tax to the ATF and wait 3 months for background checks and because you cannot have one made before 1986 they each cost in excess of $10,000 apiece. If you can afford that, I rather doubt you are the type to go crazy and shoot a bunch of people.
The technical term "assault rifle" specifically refers to select-fire rifles chambered in an intermediate cartridge. The scary black modern rifles you see in gun stores everywhere are not assault rifles, they are semi-auto only.
As for the 30 round magazines, banning them would be very silly. All a magazine is, is a box with a spring and a follower. Anyone with a dremel and some sheet metal can build a bigger box pretty easily. Another thing that makes this silly, is if you look at states where regular capacity magazines are banned like California, you will see magazines that are the normal 30 round magazines but pinned so the follower can only go down so far as to hold 10 rounds. If a bad guy wanted his mag to hold 30 rounds all he has to do is remove the pin. As such, banning 30 round magazines affects no one but law-abiding gun owners.
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The % of guns entering Mexico from the north pales in comparison to the amount entering from the Mexican ports, and Guatemala. The Army like drug cartel wants fully automatic weapons like the military has. Those guns don’t come from the US. The only reason you have stats from the US is because we have gun registration. The stats say that 80 some % of the registered guns come from the US. They have no info from a gun coming from the south.
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I was 18 years old and a precinct worker for Robert F. Kennedy when a 15 cent bullet changed not only my life but the life of a nation as well. As a 10 year military veteran I am not against guns. But at the same time, with every gun related tragedy comes the inevitable national kneejerk reaction for some kind of gun control. After a few months the dialogue dies down, very little is ever done and thousands more continue to die every year until the next high profile shooting occurs. Lets face it, we are a violent nation, but we simply don't have the collective will to go mano y mano with the gun lobby.
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Guns do not necessarily create/foster violence in our society. I do not think it is appropriate to implicitly imply that that is the case. Let's focus on the reasons for violent tendencies (whether with a gun, knife, or any other object) before we even worry about the particular instrument used. The reasons might include movies and video games.
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Does gender play a role in where you stand on gun ownership and rights?
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Have to be very careful that I am not outed for "complaining." Where I work, the boss is an obsessive collector (hoarder?)of weaponry and has MANY in the workplace. Literally, dozens. Old ones, new ones, exotic and mundane ones which are claimed "none loaded". Lets visitors go to his "collection" and play with these weapons sometimes without his even being there. Recently, a visitor came in and the "boys" were "playing gunds." I came to the door of the boss' office to tell him he had a phone call. Visitor with gun in hand swung around to face me pointing the gun right at me. Like any non-gun fan would likely do I froze. In terror. My boss and his visitor thought this was "funny." THIS type of thing is why I would like to see a LOT more regulation of firearms because I don't frankly give a darn about any of the smug self-serving arguments from gun nuts including NRA types. What I see completely tied in with gun addiction is a certain mentality. A mentality that does end up with innocent people "accidentally" shot and killed (with that tired excuse, oopsie, dang didn't think that one was loaded gee sorry ma'am thass toooo bad).
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I own enough guns to sink an island, mostly the military/police variety. I have a personal belief that the right to self defense is absolute and supercedes even a constitutional right if there wasn't a second amendment. I don't care if the FBI/ATF is "snooping on me;" I had a security clearance and I'm used to scrutiny.
If you make the choice to aquire a firearm, you have an absolute obligation to learn the effective/safe methods of handling/ employing them. I have a background as a small and heavy weapons specialist and armorer (gun mechanic) in the Army. Even though I have been through countless safety classes, I am always open to review. I will not go to the range without firearms safety review. It's my conviction that training is even more important to employing the weapon than ammunition.
There are almost no gun accidents; what happened in Oregon City was negligence. Unless there is a factory defect and a weapon goes off when it isn't intended to, its the fault of the weapon owner. My heart goes out to everyone involved in any shooting like this but responsibility is price of gun ownership. EVERY time you pull a trigger, you are responsible for the ultimate destination of the bullet.
With that in mind it isn't why I own them. I feel very safe in life, so self defense isn't the reason. I have been to dangerous places, more so than the US in my opinion. In some of these places, you are in more jeopardy when you posses a firearm because it identifies you as a combatant and therefore a legitimate target- so much for empowerment.
I own firearms because it is a way to keep me connected with a part of my past that I like to stay in touch with. I despise hunting unless its for survival and see hunting used as an excuse to bypass the big issues around defense and safety. Personally, its a hot rod like hobby.
I think both of your current guests are correct and clearly wrong. Too bad we are all too full of our own stories and political trenches to have a rational discussion around firearms. Every term is a code word and an inflamatory. Why can't we discuss this without blame. Until that changes we will remain in deadlock and we will get more laws, see more violence, see more negligent discharges, and in the end we all will be no safer than we are now whether the US makes it illegal to own anything you can't bring on a commercial airline...or if every American must own a rocket launcher at a minimum.
Why not find some common ground to defend.
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Dead on, thank you.
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I own and run a firearms training business, after retiring from 29 years in police work. Your comments on the accidental discharges(s) by your guests are misstated. These are "NEGLIGENT" discharges.
An accident is unforeseeable and not preventable.
That said, it has been my experience gun safety has greatly increased and positive incidents where a pistol was properly used to prevent violent crime has gone up.
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You know, there's nothing that comforts me about guns more than a rude, pushy, angry White male, who insults people who disagree with him, who argues based on anecdotal evidence and obscure and 'irrefutable' talking points (because of their obscurity), and generally behaves like a spoiled brat.
The idea that HE has a gun is NOT exactly what I'd call a selling point for gun rights.
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Have to be very careful that I am not outed for "complaining." Where I work, the boss is an obsessive collector (hoarder?)of weaponry and has MANY in the workplace. Literally, dozens. Old ones, new ones, exotic and mundane ones which are claimed "none loaded". Lets visitors go to his "collection" and play with these weapons sometimes without his even being there. Recently, a visitor came in and the "boys" were "playing guns." I came to the door of the boss' office to tell him he had a phone call. Visitor with gun in hand swung around to face me pointing the gun right at me. Like any non-gun fan would likely do I froze. In terror. My boss and his visitor thought this was "funny." THIS type of thing is why I would like to see a LOT more regulation of firearms because I don't frankly give a darn about any of the smug self-serving arguments from gun nuts including NRA types. What I see completely tied in with gun addiction is a certain mentality. A mentality that does end up with innocent people "accidentally" shot and killed (with that tired excuse, oopsie, dang didn't think that one was loaded gee sorry ma'am thass toooo bad).
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It's not just non-gun fans that would hate that. As a firearms enthusiast, if someone did that to me, I would punch them in the face and get them kicked off the shooting range for life. That's breaking at least two and probably all of the cardinal rules of safe firearms handling.
1) always treat your weapon as if it is loaded
2) always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction
3) keep your booger hook of the bang switch until you are ready to fire
4) always be sure of your target and what is behind it
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I was always told never to point a gun at someone unless you intended to kill them. Not even an unloaded gun.
That leaves no room for such "fun". Or accidents. Or negligence.
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I am very pro gun and believe that our rights are important. I was suprised to see how easy it was to get a concealed carry license. At no point in the process do you have to provide prove any proficiency in gun handling or safety. As a veteran I've used guns for many years and have been trained to do so safely, but not every concealed carrier has such training and that concerns me.
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My guns were made with many purposes. My scary black modern rifles were put together, by me, for competition. They were not made with killing people in mind.
My concealed carry handgun on the other hand, was made to shoot people and I train so as to be very effective at it. I would submit that you are thinking about this the wrong way around though. This pistol is not for taking lives as much as it is for saving them. If I am ever in a situation where I have to use it for self defense, I am going to shoot until the threat is stopped. When the bad guy falls down or is otherwise no longer a threat, I stop shooting. Whether he lives or dies is much less important to me than my own life or the lives of my loved ones. The goal is not to kill the bad guy, the goal is to stop him.
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The goal is not to kill the bad guy, the goal is to stop him -- Spengo — Tue Feb. 1st 10:13a.m.
Very intelligent attitude -- another way to think of it is, "The objective is not to 'win,' the objective is merely not to lose."
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I think the question hear may be somewhat disingenuos, or possibly a bit mroe of a semantic discussion. For some it will be a discussion on "WOULD YOU OWN A TOOL?" as in woudl you own a hammer, a crowbar... While for others it is mroe about the extension of the tool, as in "WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO KILL?"
This is part of the debate, arguing different levels of the words and uses. While anti-gun protesters are arguing and pointing the violence and the transgressions committed with guns the pro0fun lobby points to the utility and the tool. This can then be flipped but it never seems like we are arguing the same definitions.
I would argue that pro-gunners are not pro-violence in fact they often argue that the presence of a gun can be a deterrent to violence (while this may be a logical mis-step, the threat of violence can be its own kind of violence).
So...this argument becomes very difficult. We also have to acknowledge the whole "Its not the tool but the user" argument. Another can of worms.
Making this whole thing a very touchy subject, hair trigger if you will.
I myself am anti-gun. I don't own one and never hope to. I don't feel the need and have never been in a situation where I thought a gun would help. I lean towards the "live by the sword, die by the sword" mentality, that a culture dependent on guns either for our safety or violence becomes a violent culture. I would wonder how often the presence of guns on private citizens deters crimes? Guns were present in AZ when Sen. Giffords was shot, did it stop the shooting?
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Yes, I own a .22 caliber rifle and a 9mm handgun and use them for sporting purposes. I actually work for a company in the shooting sports industry. There are even trained employees on site trained in safety and proper handling techniques. I use them only for sport (in a designated range) but do not lock them up. Respect your firearms and treat them as if they were always loaded. The ammo for each firearm is stored in a separate location. I have never used a firearm in self defense and don't plan to. No small children are in the home.
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A lot of people talk about how they feel about guns. Not so many people talk about the numbers.
How does the US compare with other countries where guns are alowed? What about countries where they are not? Is there any truth to the fear that only criminals would have guns?
How often are guns misused? How often do they serve their purpose? Admittedly, these are difficult numbers to find but numbers speak much more loudly than feelings.
An intelligent conversation cannot be had until we know the numbers.
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The NRA keeps such data but I don't know if they give online access to it. I suggest that you search their site.
If you are good at searching online you can probably find the data elsewhere.
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It is clear to me that Oregon's lax gun laws contribute to too many gun deaths and injuries. Ceasefire Oregon works to reduce gun violence by strengthening commonsense gun legislation, such as background checks and child access prevention laws, whereas organizations like the Oregon Firearms Federation work to remove or prevent such laws, like background checks.
And the tired attempt to compare gun deaths to deaths by cars or power tools is ridiculous. Guns are purpose-made to kill quickly and efficiently, yet don't even require a moment of training to purchase them, or registration and licensing, and parents are not held responsible to keep the guns safely in their home (unlike regulations to keep small children in child safety seats in cars, for instance). Such legislation makes us safer, without infringing on our right to self-defense.
My blog post on this interview: http://newtrajectory.blogspot.com/2011/02/guns-in-our-lives-interview-on-opb-part.html
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I don't wish to upset anyone with a reference to our genetic inheritence: as in the well documented desire of most males to keep weapons. As far back as archeological research extends we find indisputable evidence that men, proto modern men, were crafting and using weapons a million yrs ago. That represents about 50,000 generations in which the Darwinian dynamic was in operation. Those who made and wielded the best, most efficient weaponry lived longest and passed on their genetic inheritence right down to us, today.
The unwar-like, or poor makers and users of shoddy weapons simply died out, by failing to reproduce or rear to maturity sufficient numbers of defenseless children.
My point is, with rare exceptions, most normal males with acceptable levels of testosterone wish to own weapons and be proficient in their use. By that I don't mean walking the street gunning down passersby, but simply to maintain these and be capable of using them to defend their own and the lives of their family members if required.
If civil society falls apart in America, men who presently refuse to own a weapon or use one will have to rely on neighbors for protection of themselves and their equally defenseless families...assuming they are capable of reproduction. But occupying the moral high ground on this issue as many of you, do, only works as long as you remain in good relationship with your armed neighbors. If civil society comes unraveled here, you may be relying on their kindness to allow you and yours to take shelter behind their shield of weapons and to share their house.
On the other hand if you have been too haughty and moralizing in your anti-gun rhetoric they may leave you to you own devices.
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Rothenfluch: "Did you feel fearful of an intruder in your home in Germany also?"
Wow. Who said his decision was based on fear? It sounds to me like your guest is very well informed and made what was a rational, well reasoned decision based on his situation.
Okamoto: "Every shooting is preventable. [...] Had this been in Portland [...], the gun-owner would have been charged."
Does Ms. Okamoto even listen to herself? She states that the shooting would have been preventable, then goes on to contradict herself by conceding that the shooting would have happened anyway, but someone would have been punished. In this case the owner, not the shooter.
And that's very telling of her mindset: that owning a gun is a deviance that needs to be deterred through punishment. This has nothing at all to do with stopping people from being shot, which frankly she has no idea how to do. Her answer clearly indicates that.
Okamoto: Guns are made to kill people. [...] Cars are not.
So actually following this reasoning, people will kill each other intentionally because that's what they want to do, and this is difficult to prevent since you first have to convince someone not to kill someone else. Unintentional accidents with cars are therefore infinitely more preventable (since no one wants to accidentally kill someone else), as well as statistically an order of magnitude greater in deaths.
So why would Ms. Okamoto focus on the more difficult goal with the lower rate-of-return?
Because it's not about valuing life, it's about not liking guns.
Okamoto: The gun lobby does not work on making guns safer.
First, this is patently false. The NRA puts a lot of resources into the "Eddie Eagle" firearm safety program for children, as well as other safety fora such as "young hunter safety education", etc. Second, it's those who claim to be for greater safety that fight the most vociferously against firearms training in our schools and childrens' clubs.
Why? Because they want firearms eradicated from our way of life, and anything that makes them a more sustainable part of our way of life (including saving lives) is anathema.
Okamoto: Then why can't we have some type of law that prevents children from having access to weapons?
Outstanding question. Perhaps when she figures it out, we can use the same answer to stop children from having access to alcohol, prescription drugs, contraband drugs, dad's stack of Playboy's, etc.
The point isn't that the problem is guns. The problem is that children--and teenagers in particular--are extremely curious and tend to get into whatever they can.
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[cont]
Okamoto: [...] or more preferably, makes the gun-owners responsible.
So if I have alcohol in the house and my kid gets into it, gets drunk, and dies in a car crash... is the bar set to a different height? And if so, why?
Or am I somehow granted absolution because alcohol is ok, but guns are evil... and it's not really about the loss of life at all?
All of Ms. Okamoto's arguments are more about criminalizing ownership of guns and less (or not at all) about saving lives.
I find her intellectual dishonestly shameless.
Okamoto: We need to have people who are responsible gun owners.
Why not just require responsible parenting? That would solve the drugs, alcohol, and vehicular death issues all at the same time... except that it's not easily done.
So until the real root-cause issue gets fixed, she's happy to use guns for the purpose of her grandstanding.
DL Nelson: The NRA is distinctly not a safety focus or training organization.
News to me. Should people turn in their NRA Range Safety Officer and Firearms Instructor certifications since they aren't not bona fide?
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/rso.asp
Okamoto: That I have no idea.
Yes, I'll say. She's not considered the serious, real world issues and practicable solutions to those problems.
Okamoto: A background check for a felon is a joke.
Ah, so what she's saying is that felons might be in positions of public trust handling financial records, medical and pharmaceutical supplies, caregivers to our young children, managing critical infrastructure and transportation... and she's not worried about that. Just whether they can buy a gun through a firearms dealer.
For a minute I was afraid she might be tilting at windmills.
Ms. Okamoto is a poster child for cognitive dissonance.
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Comments are now closed.
God Not Guns: Tucson Argues For Gun Limits to Reduce Violence @HuffPostRelig http://huff.to/fFDTJB