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A recent article in The New Yorker, The Apostate: Paul Haggis vs. The Church of Scientology, has (as I write this) been recommended by over 26,000 people on Facebook. People are talking about it around dinner tables and water coolers. Have you read it yet?
Jeff Hawkins worked in marketing for the Church of Scientology for over 35 years. He left the church and lives in Portland now. We'll talk to him, and others, about Scientology and its influence on the lives of Oregonians. What's your experience with Scientology? What do you want to know about it?
Photo credit: Adam Lisagor / Creative Commons
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"Cult Religion"
Is a redundancy.
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"Cult Religion"
Is a redundancy.
Tom D Ford — Thu Feb. 10th 4:37p.m.
Too true, Tom, too true!
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Jeff Hawkins talking about Scientology??? That's just ridiculous. Check this out: http://www.freedommag.org/special-reports/cnn/jeff-hawkins-sympathy-for-the-devil.html
“He is a liar to the core.” says the former wife of Jeff Hawkins to Anderson Cooper
Also for the record: Hawkins holds the dubious distinction of not only lying to his wife and colleagues, he also lied point-blank to Scientology Founder L. Ron Hubbard... Which, when he finally copped to it, is how he came to lose his job as a Church copywriter.
Whereupon, he pretty much wrote himself out of the Church entirely and scurried away in 2005. It was also at this juncture he wrote himself out of his marriage with a (dirty) laundry list of moral transgressions.
...
As for his own performance, Hawkins portrays himself as a lonely Scientologist abandoned and forsaken after leaving the Church.
It is not entirely true. For within no time at all he had joined a small cadre of kindred souls who call themselves Anonymous.
Cooper himself makes passing mention of it, and “innocently” describes them as an “anti-Scientology” protest group—which, in a sense, is correct.
Although for “protest” read: bomb threats leveled at Churches of Scientology, death threats leveled at prominent Scientologists, threats of anthrax attacks leveled at the congregation in general and cyberattacks leveled at Scientology computer networks. Accordingly, Anonymous is presently under United States federal investigation for hate crimes against the Church while two members were recently convicted and sentenced. (See CooperSpeak: How Terrorists Become “Protesters.”)
So, no, Hawkins was not exactly forsaken after leaving the Church. But good gracious! What sort of sympathy could he possibly elicit were we to know he was running with an honest to goodness terrorist organization? While as for Cooper (and our sympathies are with you, Anderson), one can hardly blame him for failing to mention those pesky particulars concerning Hawkins and Anonymous.
After all, the whole premise of his show was that one couldn’t possibly know who was lying and who was not and viewers had to decide for themselves.
...
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Scientologists have a reliable habit of personally attacking anyone who criticizes their organization or practices. One should beware of any person or group who must resort to ad hominems to justify their position, especially when it involves the use of a Scientology-owned magazine ("Freedom") to prove a point.
I'd rather trust context shaped by journalistic principles, such as investigative pieces from the New Yorker, the New York Times, BBC and the Pulitzer-prize winning St. Petersburg Times.
Ideas, regardless of who says them, should stand on their own. Scientology should stop attacking people and should start looking at themselves: coercing abortions from SeaOrg staff, using psychological abuse and harm to frighten people into submission and engaging in practices that have led people to serious physical harm or suicide: these are a far better topic to consider.
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This comment has been removed by the TOL staff.
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No, no, you got that wrong. Hubbard's fiction and non-fiction are two different things:
WHAT IS SCIENTOLOGY?
Developed by L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology is a religion that offers a precise path leading to a complete and certain understanding of one's true spiritual nature and one's relationship to self, family, groups, Mankind, all life forms, the material universe, the spiritual universe and the Supreme Being.
Scientology addresses the spirit—not the body or mind—and believes that Man is far more than a product of his environment, or his genes.
Scientology comprises a body of knowledge which extends from certain fundamental truths. Prime among these are:
Man is an immortal spiritual being.
His experience extends well beyond a single lifetime.
His capabilities are unlimited, even if not presently realized.
Scientology further holds Man to be basically good, and that his spiritual salvation depends upon himself, his fellows and his attainment of brotherhood with the universe.
Scientology is not a dogmatic religion in which one is asked to accept anything on faith alone. On the contrary, one discovers for oneself that the principles of Scientology are true by applying its principles and observing or experiencing the results.
The ultimate goal of Scientology is true spiritual enlightenment and freedom. (courtesy: scientology.org)
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I would like to found a cult based on Barbarella.
A young Jane Fonda was very fetching in her thong and would really draw the critical young male demographic. We would drink Banana-Orange Koolaid at ceremonies.
It would be for Peace and Harmony and Love.... But I would be the head honcho(HH). Give me one day, and I could imagine the theology and rituals.
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I would like to found a cult based on Barbarella. -- jacob — Mon Feb. 14th 9:53a.m.
Don't forget the Orgasmatron! And what title would the head of the Church of Barbarella be called? The Duran Duran? (This lends itself to some hilarity and silliness!)
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@Louanne
Louanne is a person or several persons whose job it is to fill comment boards with negative comments about scientology critics.
It is easiest for her to do so with ex-scientologists like Mr. Hawkins because the cult keeps records of any "confessions" (auditing sessions, security checks) and they feel free to release this personal information if it helps in their aim of hurting the credibility of the critic.
The Freedom mag (a scientology organ, please do read it for a good laugh) article she mentions occurred after Jeff Hawkins and other critics appeared on several episodes of Anderson Cooper 360 discussing violence within the upper echelons of scientology. Freedom magazine also tried to character assassinate Anderson Cooper. http://www.freedommag.org/special-reports/cnn/tricks-of-the-trade.html
If you wish to see the episodes themselves, they are very interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/user/mackiesyotub#p/u/10/x3t86Y3zdwA
There are multiple videos, but they are all in one place. You can also go directly to the Anderson Copper 360 website:
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/category/church-of-scientology/
You can see Mr. Hawkins for yourself and compare his response to what his ex-wife says, knowing that he knows the pressure she is under to make him look bad.
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@Louanne part 2
Jeff Hawkins is unrelated to anonymous. Many in anonymous support his quest to be heard and enjoy his self examination as to how he and others were drawn into this cult and stayed so long.
His blog here: http://counterfeitdreams.blogspot.com/ is an excellent read. I really cannot recommend it enough. I have seen his ex-wife in action and would have negative things to say about her. But after reading his entire story, I can see what she has been through and hope she too can escape one day.
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scientology is, to some extent, an attempt to rationalize ‘religion’, but through its inadequacies, it instead debases rationalism - and remains just another superstition
all ‘religions’ are for the fatuous - (yep, that’s a blanket statement and i stand by it) - most keep the mysticism and ritual, the hogwash and the theatrical, for exactly that reason - then pass the collection plate.
Religion, like other fictions, depends upon the suspension of disbelief - on the other hand, rational thought depends upon the suspension of belief - because after all, belief is only turned to in the face of a lack of fact.
it is not that ‘religions’ serve no good purposes, but it is not the religiosity which does the good - it is the elements used, many of which are simple common sense; but, these elements are hijacked as it were, and clothed in some mumbo-jumbo which removes them from their simplicity and has them paraded around as something special in a way which they are not - and turns what they actually are into something not conceived of in the correct terms - e.g. santa claus, the birds and the bees, virgin birth, speaking with the tongue of a snake, et ceteras - things which make sense to fools, but really make no sense whatsoever -
so, i offer no defense for it, but don’t cultify scientology unless you’re going to take on the whole gang, because all religions are all corrupt and corrupting, no matter how many robes, doctorates or mysteries flaunted or invoked - superstition is so primitive, so childish, and so prevalent, it is a plague upon us
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From ScientologyNews.org or Scientology.org
The Scientology religion was founded by American author and humanitarian L. Ron Hubbard. The first Church of Scientology was formed by Scientologists in Los Angeles in 1954. Today the religion spans the globe with more than 9,000 Churches, Missions and affiliated groups in 165 countries.
The word Scientology is taken from the Latin word scio, which means “knowing in the fullest meaning of the word,” and the Greek word logos, meaning “study of.” It literally means “knowing how to know.”
Scientology holds that Man is an immortal spiritual being. His experience extends well beyond a single lifetime. His capabilities are unlimited, even if not presently realized. He is basically good, and his spiritual salvation depends upon himself and his fellows and his attainment of brotherhood with the universe.
L. Ron Hubbard discovered that a person is neither a body nor a mind but is a spiritual being, independent of both. An individual discovers for himself that Scientology works by applying its principles and observing or experiencing the results. The ultimate goal of Scientology is true spiritual enlightenment and freedom for the individual. (continued at http://www.scientologynews.org/faq/what-are-some-of-the-core-tenets-of-scientology.html)
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The problem with Scientology has nothing to do with whether or not it's a religion. That question, quite frankly, is distracting chaff and essentially irrelevant.
The real discussion about Scientology should not center on religion: it should center on whether we should turn a blind eye to an organization that causes serious harm and injury to others.
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@bob L
funny, you say one thing not to do, then in the next breath you say we should only do it to this one 'religion', and not other things which it itself purports to be like -
Scientology relies upon the same sort of mumbo-jumbo as most other religions - supernatural beings, hollow promises, keeping only a small circle of friends who have been brain-washed, I mean believe as they do, ostracism, et c et c
Scientology exists because of the too easy credulity of too many - it takes the same advantage of people's weaknesses and fears as 'mainstream' or 'pure' or condoned' religions -
so why separate them out -
it's a problem of why we are so easily taken advantage of by others -
-true it's rather more complex than i can tap out quickly and completely cogently at this moment -
but you haven't done so great either
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Why are you doing a show on this subject? It was already well fleshed out earlier this week on Fresh Air? I feel this show is in a bit of a slump lately, very wonky and repetitive. Kick it up a notch!
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I AGREE >. NOTICE THE LACK OF COMMENTS >. THEY COULD HAVE DONE A SHOW ON NEIL GOLDSCHMIDT AND HIS NOW DEAD RAPE VICTIM >. BUT SARAH ROTHENFLUCH DOESNT WANT TO RUFFLE ANY LIB FEATHERS. DON'T U OPB LIBS THINK WE CAN'T SEE THROUGH YOUR OBFISCATION??
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Methinks DFUND is obsessed with Neil Goldschmidt. This is at least the third time he (?) has suggested a discussion on that subject matter in a discussion thread for some other topic.
If DFUND is so dead-set on a discussion about Neil Goldschmidt, then perhaps he can send an email to the producers with the FACTS, not innuendo and theories and speculations.
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@ DFUND
"OBFISCATION"
You are obfuscating words by misspelling them, while in the act of complaining about obfuscation?
Please, un-obfuscate, yourself!
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TOM >. DONT BE SO ANAL
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"obfiscation" would perhaps be the many ways money and goods can be taken without recompense or as penalty
cf. 'confiscation'
or maybe not
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Please Stick to the Subject.
This is about SCIENTOLOGY AND ITS PRACTICE not whether God EXISTS or the Battle between Religonists(95% of the World) vs Atheists.
It is a specific topic, and educated opinions are needed. Insulting world religion and whole groups of people as 'cults' reflects ignorance, intolerance and really doesn't advance your argument. ' Cult' has a specific definition and usage.
To understand GeoPolitics today, we all need to have basic knowledge of religions of the world. You almost cannot comment on Egypt and Revolution 2.011, 9-11, Iran, Iraq or Afganistan if you are not familiar with islam. And we have to be familiar with new religions and beliefs sprouting in our midsts. Example, Yoga has a religious and spiritual basis and is widely practiced in America.
IT is as essential as cultural sensitivity. Don't be a religion bigot. Please read up on simple religion terms. And stay respectful. THNX.
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Write with civility and respect. Attack arguments, not commenters." (FROM TOL COMMENTING GUIDELINES)
IS "COMMENTERS" A WORD?? >. LOOK IT UP > IT IS NOT A WORD!!!!WILL THEY CORRECT THIS? LETS WAIT AND SEE.
ONE WOULD THINK THE HARVARD EDUCATED UMM EMILY WOULD HAVE CAUGHT THIS
EDUCATION IS A GOOD THING , FACTS ARE IMPORTANT. POLITICAL CORRECTNESS TENDS TO LIMIT THE FREE FLOW OF FACTS. >. IT IS CONTERPRODUCTIVE TO LEARNING. PERHAPS SOME PEOPLE PLACE TOO MUCH CREDIBILITY IN AN EDUCATION WHICH IS ONLY AN INDOCTRINATION IN POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
SO SAYS THIS COMMENTER.
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Sorry, but I find it very difficult to write respectfully about any aspect of the religion industry.
In my work around the world I have found that religion, be it Christian, Hinduism, Muslim, Judeism, Buddhism, Scientology, voo-doo, obia or animism.. whatever intellectual poison preferred- causes more death, misery, ignorance and poverty than all other causes together.
These..."people" in Hollywood that play act at believing in the nonsense of Scientology ought to be horse whipped for making something this dreadful trendy and cool to the many yahoos out here in Flyover Land who hang on to every twitch and giggle of the Hollywood stupidites.
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without the christian religion the united states would never have become the greatest nation in the world >. where there is more freedom than any other place on earth.
and its the libs who are all ga ga over hollywood >. the center right american public consider hollywood as just amusement while libs have some REALITY CONFUSION
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@deafened (sorry my CAPS LOCK IS BROKEN)
without religion, these united states might have become a much greater force for good in the world rather than a haven for the new fundies and a bunch of squabbling religified know-nothings
you are welcome to your poorly informed and misguided prejudice of course
as regards hollywood - the ignorant are not liberal, and the far-right seems to have a tighter embrace of hollywood values than hollywood itself does -hollywood just sells, those people buy and keep it alive like it was worth something
and i think we might be in the ranks of the 'commenteers'
see if you can wrap what's left of your imagination around that -
what do you use for a dictionary anyway - is cross words part of the title (yeh yeh, i should talk)
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"Jeff Hawkins worked in marketing for the Church of Scientology for over 35 years. He left the church..." -- from the introduction
He can't have worked for the "Church" of Scientology for much longer than that -- wasn't it only founded in 1966 (or then-abouts)?
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Defund above,
I think it is 'commentator'. Or so it lists in my dictionary. But "commenter" is an interesting almost-word. Does this lady hail from Harvard? I've worked with several of those rare birds. One was a roaring alcoholic who set fire to the parental manse while on home leave; the other was simply a great axxxxxe whom everyone loathed. A third had great difficulty writing standard English.
Those from Yale are strangely sinister.
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IN THE PROUD LIB TRADITION >. THEY WILL NOT ADMIT TO MAKING A MISTAKE >> SO SAYS THIS COMMENTER
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The Founding Church of Scientology opened its doors in Washington, DC in July of 1955, though earlier Dianetics Foundations were around previously. Video describing such.
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@Penny
Jeff was in from 1967 to 2005:
http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/hawkins.shtml
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Religion is a belief in a supernatural being. That's all it is.
All else that is associated with any and all religions is humanism, some good, some bad.
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I'll go you one further, Tom & DeFund....I was educated in a Jesuit university, and so had a thorough foundation in scholasticism. In my case it didn't really do what they always hope it will. But I am deeply, almost reverentially appreciative of what the Holy Roman Apostolic church DID give Western man. It laid the foundations for our art, music (serious) architecture, formal logic and the university system of disciplined, organized study and inquiry.
That's a pretty hefty accomplishment for a badly scribbled mythology first cobbled together by flea-bitten goat herders wandering the deserts (usually lost) of north eastern Arabia 4000 yrs ago.
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gereng
Yep. Mankind has created such incredible beauty and knowledge while promoting and being subject to religious believing persons.
And the eastern religions did similar things too.
But it was all done by mankind. And during the same times that mankind created all that beauty and knowledge to wrap around a belief in the supernatural beings, man-unkind was also creating all of the horrors associated with and wrapped around "religion, all of the crusades, the torquemada tortures, etc.
It took me a long time to get back to appreciating all of the beauty and knowledge, keeping that and throwing out "the dirty bathwater" of belief in the existence of a "God".
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a short essay for you to consider about the meaning of the word 'religion'
i wish otherwise intelligent folk would take the time to learn to distinguish between superstition, religion, morals, ethics, philosophy, and other terms similar- e.g. buddhism, except at the most intellectually impoverished level IS NOT A RELIGION, and never was, in the general western sense- and that is because the word itself, religion, has been so bastardized by the tussles amongst the various xtian sects - ancestor worship might be the most easily characterized as religion, thus giving the truer sense back to the word - look to its roots -. Confucianism is better thought of as a political philosophy; Daoism, a natural philosophy; on the other hand, christianity is superstition, as well as anti-scientific and pro-ignorance, with morals added on like chrome on a '58 Oldsmobile. There should be a chart with graphs and statistics to demonstrate where particular 'belief systems' lie on a truth scale (is that a pun or did i use the wrong word?) VooDoo is the only thing that i can think of off the top of my head which is more superstitious than xtianity. No offense Haiti.
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lolo
It is my understanding that Buddhism is the idea that there is no god, that every feeling-experience of heaven, hell, and the whole range in between, happens inside the human being during one lifetime and is the result of what that human being thinks and how he/she acts and then reacts. It is pretty much the ultimate in self responsibility.
And it is not "spirituality", rather a version of humanism.
And so it is not a Religion, is not a belief in a supernatural being.
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nicely put
off topic, but to continue
the need for god/the use of god, removes self responsibility
in a corrected definition, a refined definition, of religion, Buddhism would be a perfect religion - because it avoids solipsism by re-winding the developed self-awareness into the world about the self, thus leading from self-awareness/self-responsiblity to social responsibility - Nirvana would be what may happen after life, not the goal of life or in life -
this is the 're-binding' that the word ‘religion’ tries to convey, and it has nothing to do with belief in that which is not, but rather the discovery, in each one, of that which is, and re-entering the world with that - the 'outside world' does not 'not exist' in Buddhism, it is an irrelevant question - the question becomes 'do i exist' - "cogito ergo sum" was the one philosophical point DesCartes got right in that little treatise of his - the 'evil genius' was just a big bugaboo to comfort those who like it in the dark because it leaves the only room there is for a god
"i can not be called apostate, for i never believed"
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Another radio stations that fell into the trap of some propaganda artists. Lame.
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And you fell into the trap of only reading Scientology-approved materials to justify... Scientology. Et tu, Louanne?
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Dude, may I invite you to look at the address bar of your browser? What do you see? Does it say "scientology.org"?
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it says "infect my computer with a virus because i might be a disbeliever"
it says "here is all the propaganda you'll ever need to lose your mind and gain a piece of mine"
it says "I'm so angry that you question what i am afraid to, i'll bite you"
and so forth
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for louanne
thanks for so much material showing how irrational sci'ligists are - it has been invaluable, to say nothing of how worthless also
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@Louanne
I would love to hear a radio show with scientologists as quests. But repeating the phrase "go look on our website" everytime one asks a question would get old.
And never talking about Xenu? That would be boring as well.
Also, the scientology guest would have to agree to take questions from callers.
But please feel free to ask your bosses if this would be possible.
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Right Louanne. I don't get how people can be some prejudiced in this day and age and how so many people get taken in by these dudes.
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Not prejudiced, paid. With a favor, with money or some special service having to do with their lower backside.
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you two just keep patting each other on the backside (the 'lower backside' if i may take a term from dear louanne)
if you do enough, you might get extra brownie points and if there's room, they'll strap you onto the exterior of the rocket-ship that rescues all the true believers -take your cameras, you'll have a great vantage point
we assume you are actually two separate entities writing in to us with your defense of foolishness
is there a youtube video of the rocket yet?
send more links - surely you have nothing else more important to do today! send bacon too
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@JeanneBa
Assuming you were allowed to listen to the show, please write out what parts you disagreed with or felt were lies.
Thanks in advance.
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¡¡-the scientologists have mobilized their hit squad minions-!!
I knew this would happen - it always does. You breathe the word scientology with a hint of incredulity, and their "people" come out of the wall with their "ideas" and quotes and propaganda. They are almost as weird about it as the fundies.
- this promises to be exciting!!
since you’re all here now, Louanne, Jeanne, contflas, Jeffrey, and you have all this research you’ve done on the cult, tell us about the bunker in the hills of Humboldt county, would you? -
-how big is it?
-are you invited when the end comes, or is it just for the “stars”?
-do they pay you to add your two cents worth, or is it from the heart?
-do you have a heart, or is it an artificial pump provided by the overseers from another galaxy?
-how is this cult funded again?
what "circle" have you reached, each of you?
-when do they put you back in your “room”?
inquiring minds want to know (what stories you can come up with)
and thank you soooo much
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Lolo - as a long-time Portland-area Scientologist (presently displaced to Washington, DC, but soon to be back), I - like many others - don't like to see my friends lied about in the media, nor badmouthed without some mention of setting the record straight.
Like so many other people who actually like their church that they go to, and actually like the solace and friendship one can acquire by having friends who actually care about you, I do feel passionate about making sure that it's portrayed properly.
So no, nobody pays me to add my two cents worth. See this for what I actually think about Scientology.
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lolo, could you format your prewritten comments? They are really hard to read.
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oh louanne - you mean L ron didn't give you the aliens' good eyes yet?
you just haven't believed hard enough yet i guess, or can't you afford the next level? - where all is revealed and eyesight is superfluous - is that word too big for you?
believe me, it would be so much more convenient if they were prewritten, but today i have some free time, and don't feel singled out - i am an equal opportunity superstition debunker - your superstition is to me no better or worse than anyone else's - although not all use 'psycho'-therapy, that is, therapy offered by psychos
if you can believe L ron, i don't see why you can't believe me - i mean, i actually exist, and you can't see either one of us - i mean, what's more sensible, that I'm here? -or that a spaceship is waiting for you? ask yourself
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@turbotad
The link you gave in addition to http://orgsaroundtheworld.wordpress.com/author/turbotad/
shows you do a lot for promoting scientology, but I guess it is all for free.
Assuming you listened to the show, please write what lies about your friends were stated.
Thanks in advance.
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This topic was slightly interesting last week when it was on Fresh Air. Why are you wasting an hour on it again this week? I can't tell if this would be worse then the continued, endless begging for money that we obviously don't want to give you. SHUT UP!!!!
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"This recent article in the New Yorker.....has (as I write this) been recommended by over 26,000 people on Facebook."
If we go by votes on Facebook or Tweet followers, Ashton Kutcher has over a million friends. 26K is hardly a drop in the bucket!
Dr Scholl's Gellin' Foam Shoe Inserts have more Facebook friends, but I know TOL will not be doing a show on this excellent, wonderful, miraculous product.
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¿¿¿ you think my comments are off the wall? ... you?
... Ashton Kutcher?
... how many people on facebook do you think there are who can write a meaningful sentence over 6-8 words in length?
... of that 95% who are superstitious, i mean 'religious', what is the average intelligence level, you think?
... and they are doing what kind of job on the world - take a good look around before you respond ...
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Well, lolo, it just so happens that I have a Facebook page, and I can write a meaningful, complex sentence well over six or eight words in length, that is not only properly punctuated, but spelled right, as well. ( <----There's an example, right there!)
On the other hand, I have seen sentences in the newspaper that are so long that they are the entire paragraph, and not puctuated very well, such that they give one a suitable place to breathe when reading an excerpt of an article to one's partner over breakfast. (And newspaper reporters are supposed to be professional writers!)
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dear penny
do you think you are representative of ALL those on facebook
-and-
the inability to read a complex sentence is rather telling, i find
and my punctation is my own choice, but i adhere to proper spelling and try to use grammar more than it uses me
but thanks for your comment
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do you think you are representative of ALL those on facebook
-and-
the inability to read a complex sentence is rather telling, i find
and my punctation is my own choice, -- Iolo — Mon Feb. 14th 9:39a.m.
Lolo, I never claimed to represent all on Facebook. (I suspect that I am one of the minority on Facebook who can write a sentence over eight or so words.) As for the long-winded sentences in the newspaper, I comprehend them just fine -- my remark was more about how, well, long-winded they can be. Finally, I was not criticizing the punctuation skills of any one here, lest I be writing about nothing but spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors.
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so far it sounds like psycho-therapy gone wrong, which is also sometimes known as brain-washing (in some circles)
can you ask your guest about the compound in the coastal hills of southern Humboldt county in California? How big, its use, is it occupied year-round, its archives, anything else you can think of? Thanks
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There is quite a lot of material on this: Wikipedia, as well as as investigative journalism from Nathan Baca of KESQ and the St. Petersburg TImes ("Truth Rundown").
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Wow--what Wolfi is saying sure makes Jeff's experiences sound fabricated!
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wow?
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What are these people (that spiritual "bean", Jeff Hawkins, and that anti-cultist, I forgot his name) talking about?" That is a great question!
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Here is what this is about:
What is an Apostate, or "ex-member"?
From the American Heritage Dictionary: One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause.
Usually apostates are called ex-members or former members.
Lonnie Kliever, Professor of Religious Studies at the Southern Methodist University, says about apostates:
"There is no denying that these (apostates) present a distorted view of the new religions to the public, the academy, and the courts by virtue of their ready availability and eagerness to testify against their former religious associations and activities."
The full Study: The Reliability of Apostate Testimony About New Religious Movements -
that shows a lot of effort on your part - a definition with a vested interest - like asking the wolf to define spilled blood.
so, if i joined jim jones and then decided to leave, i would be apostate? (but not dead)
so, Sci'ogy is having an inquisition? with or without torture? if without, how do you know you have squeezed the truth out of the victim, i mean apostate, i mean other human being?
how hard is it to come to terms with the fact you have invested so much in a fraud?
here's my take - there's no denying that a vested interest is going to distort the opinions of others -
your question might be - is that vest double-breasted, or plaid?
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You should give some background information to what you are talking about, like this (scientologynews.org):
What is the Sea Organization?
The Sea Organization is a religious order for the Scientology religion and is composed of the singularly most dedicated Scientologists—individuals who have committed their lives to the volunteer service of their religion. The Sea Organization is a fraternal religious order and is not incorporated. Members of the Sea Organization are therefore wholly responsible to the Church of Scientology to which they are assigned and are responsible, as are all other staff, to officers and directors of that Church.
The Sea Organization was established in 1967 and once operated from a number of ships. It was formed to assist L. Ron Hubbard with advanced research operations and supervise Church organizations around the world. The Sea Organization is entrusted to minister the advanced services of Scientology.
The Sea Organization retains its traditional name, although today the majority of its members are based on land. In keeping with the tradition of the order’s inception, however, they still wear maritime-style uniforms and have ranks and ratings.
The Sea Organization Motor Vessel Freewinds is entirely staffed by members of the Sea Organization. Utilizing the training materials developed by L. Ron Hubbard in the early days of the Sea Organization, the Freewinds has the best safety and service record of any ship in the Caribbean.As volunteers and members of a religious order, Sea Organization members work long hours and live communally with housing, meals, uniforms, medical and dental care, transport and all expenses associated with their duties provided by the Church. They also receive an allowance to purchase personal items, as all of their other expenses are fully covered by the Church.
Sea Organization members participate in Scientology training and auditing during a portion of each day, but otherwise dedicate themselves to furthering the objectives of Scientology through their particular functions.
Positions in the Sea Organization are analogous to that of members of religious orders in other religions. They are at the forefront of spearheading the Church’s massive social mission, including the world’s largest nongovernmental drug education campaign, the largest human rights education campaign and many another global program that touches the lives of millions. Sea Organization members are acutely aware of the world in which they live, as their service is dedicated to helping Mankind. They do not live cloistered lives, but are very much a part of society. ...
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Here's a far less flattering description of Sea Org that isn't written by Scientology (from the New Yorker article this radio show cites):
"At his house, Haggis finished telling his friends what he had learned. He suggested that they should at least examine the evidence. “I directed them to certain Web sites,” he said, mentioning Exscientologykids.com, which was created by three young women who grew up in Scientology and subsequently left. Many stories on the site are from men and women who joined the Sea Org before turning eighteen. One of them was Jenna Miscavige Hill, David Miscavige’s niece, who joined when she was twelve. For Hill and many others, formal education had stopped when they entered the Sea Org, leaving them especially ill-prepared, they say, for coping with life outside the church.
The stories Haggis found on the Internet of children drafted into the Sea Org appalled him. “They were ten years old, twelve years old, signing billion-year contracts—and their parents go along with this?” Haggis told me. “Scrubbing pots, manual labor—that so deeply touched me. My God, it horrified me!” The stories of the Sea Org children reminded Haggis of child slaves he had seen in Haiti.
Many Sea Org volunteers find themselves with no viable options for adulthood. If they try to leave, the church presents them with a “freeloader tab” for all the coursework and counselling they have received; the bill can amount to more than a hundred thousand dollars. Payment is required in order to leave in good standing. “Many of them actually pay it,” Haggis said. “They leave, they’re ashamed of what they’ve done, they’ve got no money, no job history, they’re lost, they just disappear.” In what seemed like a very unguarded comment, he said, “I would gladly take down the church for that one thing.”
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So, who gives a flying f**k about what Haggis "feels reminded" about? I feel reminded about a lot of things reading the anti-scientology crap that he's spitting about. So what? His personal opinion be as it may, he's not been a Scientologist for most of his life (oh yeah, a great pretender, sure) and ran off with a ridiculous justification he knew was a lie. This New Yorker article is full of personal opinion and things any Scientologist knows from personal experience to be lies. Everyone can walk into a Church of Scientology and find out what is going on there. And should, because "sources" like Haggis are running on an agenda and axe to grind and not on the purpose to inform anyone.
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WATCH OUT FOR ANY LINKS FROM THIS ORGANIZATION - there's such a good chance you will get a computer virus - and you run the risk your computer might want to join up without you knowing - after all the aliens have better technology, and that is really sexy, especially to a windows machine
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Louanne: To quote you: "So, who gives a flying f**k about what Haggis "feels reminded" about?" Well, I think a lot of people would give a "flying f**k" about young children that are being subjected to demeaning manual labor, especially by an organization that touts how "ethical" it is.
And, notably, Haggis was an OT-VII: he's a person you've read about in your Scientology magazines over the years, and now he's out. Did it ever occur to you that someone who was so loyal to Scientology's "Tech" and who espoused what you call "KSW" ("Keeping Scientology Working") for many years may actually have some valid points about Scientology doing something very, very wrong?
[Also, for those unfamiliar with OT-VII: this is a level of "Operating Thetan" which is considered a exceptionally high level of achievement in Scientology. If I recall correctly, the only higher (current) level is OT-VIII. To reach these levels can easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Long story short: people who reach these levels are hardly dabblers in Scientology: they're quite entangled in it.]
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@Louanne: Also, if Paul Haggis has been able to "pretend" his way to OT-VII, then it's clear there are a few good answers:
1) His Auditing over all of these years has been a failure, and the E-Meter has failed to identify and root him out. Scientology "Tech" doesn't work.
2) He has had access to Scientology's "best" Auditors at Celebrity Centres and elsewhere. Scientology's Auditors don't work.
3) He's been praised in numorous Scientology articles and lauded throughout the years for his "Ethics." Scientology must not work.
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@Bob
Haggis, the great pretender. Obviously you didn't even bother to read the article. Not part of your work contract? Geez.
Hint: 1988
More hint: 1988 was the year Haggis started pretending.
Even more hint: 1988 was the year Haggis left Scientology but stayed another 21 years.
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@Louanne: What's this 1988 nonsense about? Paul Haggis left around 2008 after being heaped praise upon by Scientology for years. HINT: Your Tech Failed.
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@Louanne: When in doubt, communicate. That includes reading the New Yorke article which I have read, processed and determined is not full of "entheta", contrary to your understanding.
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You don't have to do much to associate Anonymous with things that are bad. Hawkins has been a total supporter and spur to that group. He is not being honest.
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Jeanne:
Unlike Scientology, Anonymous is neither "organized" or a "group". It's like calling the Internet "bad".
Once again, it's apparent that there are folks who would rather "Always Attack", as L. Ron Hubbard said--instead of open dialogue and discussion. I don't believe in "Shattering Suppression", as Scientologists can be trained in: I believe in hugs!
Happy Valentine's Day!
-Bob Loblaw
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Bob, the US State Attorney does not share your opinion. One of many examples (as many Anonymous members were convicted and are in jail right at this time):
United States Attorney’s Office
Central District of CaliforniaThom Mrozek
Public Affairs OfficerOctober 17, 2008
NEW JERSEY MAN CHARGED WITH ATTACKING CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY WEBSITES IN THE NAME OF ‘ANONYMOUS’
LOS ANGELES – A New Jersey man was charged today for his role in an attack on Church of Scientology websites in January 2008 that rendered the websites unavailable.
Dmitriy Guzner, 18, of Verona, New Jersey, has agreed to plead guilty to computer hacking for his role in the distributed denial of service (DDOS) attack against the Scientology websites. A DDOS attack occurs where a large amount of malicious Internet traffic is directed at a website or a set of websites. The target websites are unable to handle the high volume of Internet traffic and therefore become unavailable to legitimate users trying to reach the sites.
According to the criminal information filed in United States District Court in Los Angeles, Guzner participated in the attack because he considered himself a member of an underground group called “Anonymous.” “Anonymous” has led protests against the Church of Scientology at various locations across the country, and in January 2008 posted a video on YouTube which announced a new offensive against Scientology.
Release No. 08-140 – original here: http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/cac/pressroom/pr2008/140.html
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Louanne: I (nor anyone else) should condone any activity that harms others. That noted, Anonymous is no more of a "group" than People Who Use Facebook.
I find it curious that you and other Scientologists posting on this forum have provided exactly zero responses to what Paul Haggis said in The New Yorker. You can continue to "Always Attack" (I'm quoting L. Ron Hubbard here), and continue to look poorly to the rest of the planet you'd like to "Clear."
I could ask you to take a serious look at what your COB Miscavige is doing and try to reform your Church. Your leader is, in your parlance, "a squirrel."
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@JeanneBa, louanna and the rest
You accuse Jeff Hawkins of being a "supporter and spur" to Anonymous.
And your proof of this is...?
Totally lacking. Guess what? Jeff Hawkins is not a supporter or "spur" to Anonymous. He does not and never has posted on any Anonymous forum. I've never seen any Anonymous posting that took advice or suggestions from Hawkins.
If you want to libel someone with false information, you should at least try a little harder to make it believable.
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Bob, Jeff was trying to disassociate himself from Anonymous. That is ingenuous. That was all I was saying.
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Jeanne, you're trying to imply that Jeff is somehow "bad" because of your claims that he is associated with a non-existent group. FLUNK.
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Bob, stop being ignorant of facts. Hawkins is hanging out with Anonymous regularly and runs with their criminal agenda. Here are some more examples, sourced by the US State Attorney:
- Another member of the hate group Anonymous, Jacob Speregen, was sentenced September 20, 2010, in New York City Criminal Court in connection with a January 8, 2009, attack on the Church of Scientology of New York. (People vs. Almahadin, Mahoud; Criminal Docket 2009NY007516).
- On Monday, May 24, 2010, Los Angeles Federal District Judge Gary Allen Feess sentenced Brian Thomas Mettenbrink of Grand Island, Nebraska, to 12 months in federal prison and a $20,000 restitution fine for engaging in a cyberattack in January 2008 on Church of Scientology websites (CR No. 09-1149-GAF). Mettenbrink is a member of the hate group “Anonymous,” many members of which have been investigated or convicted of federal and state crimes over the past three years.
- Dmitriy Guzner, 19, of Verona, New Jersey, is presently incarcerated in Federal prison for his role in the distributed denial of service (DDOS) attack against Scientology websites. A DDOS attack occurs when a large amount of malicious Internet traffic is directed at websites, overloading their capacity and making them unavailable to legitimate users. Due to the severity of the crime, Judge Joseph Greenaway in U.S. District Court in Newark sentenced Guzner to the 366-day prison term, plus two years probation following his prison term, and ordered Guzner to pay $37,500 restitution to the Church.
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Jeanne: You are clearly missing my point about Anonymous. I shall repeat this again for your benefit: it's simply a bunch of people who exchange ideas over the Internet.
Your repeated insistence that Hawkins is incorrect because your definition of Anonymous is both wrong and fiction. This is, my dear, one of the problems with blind faith in any organization that encourages you to trust and believe only them.
As I've noted before, there is nothing wrong with doubt; there is something wrong when one doesn't feel free to explore all sides of it.
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By the way, Jeanne: it's bad form to quote Scientology publications especially after your group was shamed into settling out of court for hating former members.
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As to Marketing:
Judaism has one of the most effective marketing strategies, the religion is handed down through being born to a Jewish mother, the child has no choice in the matter. I wonder why other religionists have not adopted that same Marketing strategy.
And most religionists prey upon and attack their childrens' belief systems at the earliest possible age, "human trafficking" them to weekly church services while they are dependent upon the parents for everything in their young lives, food, shelter, clothing, and nurturing, etc.
It turns out that all religion is child abuse, assaulting their young minds when they are at their most weak and vulnerable.
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There is nothing to prevent a person who is born Jewish from converting to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, or Pastafarianism. So, it seems to me that even if you are "born Jewish," one DOES have a choice.
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One clear difference between Scientology and other religions: they don't show up at your magazine to speak to the Editor-in-Chief with a PR rep and four lawyers. As happened in the case of The New Yorker.
Scientology's frequent use of litigation and extremely heavy lawyering is, ostensibly, absolutely unparalleled by several magnitudes. This is one nuance that undoubtedly makes it quite different from other "new religious movements."
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I have to say - i have had many close and dear Jewish friends - and while their religion can be just as bad as any, the one thing i find heartening, and i hope i don't over-mis-represent this - is that the Jews will ARGUE with god, and not just meekly go do what some nit-wit has said what god told him, so you'd better believe - yes, i know, there was Moses - but also the Jews don't have the papal infallibility thing, and they don't come knocking on your door saying they've seen the light, and they are just as responsible for keeping alive the knowledge of the classical era as the catholic church ever was - and, come to think of it, as the then Arabic civilization was too - Judaism, at its best, might more closely approach a philosophical religion, that is, a thinking link among us, rather than a blind faith which takes aim in the dark - but I'm only a semi-adopted Jew, by culture and not religion and completely unofficially - and please don't bring up israel because that is as much an anomaly as anything could be as far as the actual value of knowledge in a religion
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The New Yorker may be bad PR, but the guest notes people being killed. Gee, I wonder if that's happened?
SURPRISE: it has! I have the deep regret of having to mention the very sad case of Lisa McPherson, recent suicides and a case where someone on antipsychotic medications was convinced by Scientology relatives to go off of them--resulting in some very unfortunate deaths...
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The guest was not talking about Scientology when he talked about people being killed. He is a anti-scientology propaganda shill and failed very much in the attempt to stir up hate against a good group. Just like you.
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@Jeffrey: Neither guest was "stirring up hate", nor have they behaved in a manner that was hateful.
I have no interest in hate for anyone: the world has enough of that. I'm actively involved in and contribute extensively to charitable work in Portland and very much want to make The Planet a better place.
I want the things you want: world peace, a better environment, an end to wars and hunger. If I'm a shill because of that desire, well, you should be too.
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@Jeffrey, @BobDobbs/Loblaw/Whatever
True, neither guest was stirring up hate, they failed trying.
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@Louanne: You have failed to completely and properly CONFRONT (this is what Scientology calls "Shattering Suppression") all of the crimes your organization has committed. No need to hate: we simply want justice. But, since you bring up hate a lot, I must ask (as your Org asks their critics): what are YOUR crimes?
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For at least five thousand years or when man came out of the trees, religion, created by man has been and is the problem.....look around!
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I've been a member of the Church of Scientology for 40 years. My experiences have certainly been very different than Hawkings'.
I know many many memers of the Sea Organization. They are very happy, motivated and productive people. It's not hard to tell if somebody is being abused and these people are not.
My two step-chilldren were previously in the Sea Organization and for different reasons left. They are both in good standing with the Church and my wife and I see them regularly.
As for not being able to document Hubbard's military record and injuries, I would rather imagine that there are a lot of things that happened during WWII that have missing or incorrect documents. -
Joel, I'm sure there'll be a "Sec Check" and investigation on you the moment either of your children decide say anything that is even vaguely critical of Scientology.
No reasonable person would consider this behavior consistent with a "happy" and well-motivated group.
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@Joel, in order to leave the Sea Org in good standing, one must pay a "free loader debt" which is not enforceable by U.S. law, but people who are afraid of never being able to have scientology services again or being disconnected from their loved ones pay it.
How much did your 2 step children have to pay to be allowed to leave?
This is one aspect where the comparison of the Sea Org and the military is especially a joke. Members of the military can eventually leave and then get VA care if needed, pensions, etc.
Sea Org members have to pay to leave, no matter HOW long they were in.
And they are kicked out when too old or sick to work any longer. No benefits, no nothing.
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Human Trafficking and slavery: they happen when someone is unable to act freely and is not of sound mind and body.
In far too many cases from the Sea Org and other parts of Scientology, I can't see how Scientologists are acting freely: they're subjected to tremendous psychological and physical abuse, are chased down and captured when they try to escape, and--when they finally do--are told that they will be DISCONNECTED and SHUNNED by family and friends who may be the only folks that they know.
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It is curious and a little bit scary, though not of the paranoid strain, that one most point out that Scientology is a ridiculous load of nonsense. Do you really have to devote rigorous inquiry into this sort of revelation or uncovering? Who me, oh no, I had no idea whatsoever that Scientology was hokum. That is the disturbing part of this, that one must keep a straight face and allegedly show respect (whatever that means), when engaging in a dialogue with people who believe in fairy tales. How did we all get to this point? How did the majority of us get hoodwinked into giving this kind of nonsense a respectable seat at the table? One does wonder, or at least I do, what good does religious tolerance achieve? These newer religions point out some of the problems with this sort of ‘tolerance thing,’ the oldies think their nonsense has been grandfathered in, that they have been around the block so many times, that we have become immune to noticing how ridiculous they look---but as lolo points out they are all cults---and they are all just as crazy as the last. But why must we be tolerant of fantasy? Why does it need a special place in our laws? Even the most liberal of organizations treat religion with kid gloves---why? Can't we stop this cycle of bosh?
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Wow! So many Scientologists calling in and posting who listen to TOL on OPB, why not sign them up as members!
Snerk.
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I'm sure they would, except that they're heavily discouraged from reading media (which is full of "lies") and have probably spent their last few cents on purchasing Scientology training materials.
That said, they would probably have use for that Electric Bike that "Assists" when riding uphill! That's a good OPB pledge drive giveaway right there!
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Who's that anti-cult stooge? He's the worst "expert" that you could invite. All he has to say is based on some anonymous internet postings. Invite a religious scholar who knows what he's talking about!
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@Jeffrey: Why are you so hostile (Tone 1.9)? You should confront people who are critical of your path with dialogue.
Calling people names: cruel things done by children on playgrounds that are, quite frankly, shameful things as adults to engage in.
Warm Regards,
-Bob "Tone 40"
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a scholar of religion, or a brainwashed bookworm? - which would suit you?
how 'bout a disinterested scientist?
...one clever enough to say something like 'god doesn't play dice', with a wink and a nod - no god, no one to toss the dice, hence no game going on - i.e. the 'laws' of nature are a thing unto themselves, not some supernatural creation of some super-entity, whether bearded and magnanimous or non-human and malevolent, or any other combination you can dream up to scare children and those of a lesser intelligence
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Ms. Harris is in error that there is no God in Scientology. There certainly is. It is a fundamental belief of Scientology and is described in the book Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought.
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i thought L ron was god - and he ascended with the spaceship
ridicule is good for the soul
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You know, the most simple thing should be done here: look it up on http://www.scientology.org/faq/scientology-beliefs/what-is-the-concept-of-god-in-scientology.html :
Does Scientology have a concept of God?
Most definitely. In Scientology, the concept of God is expressed as the Eighth Dynamic—the urge toward existence as infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being. As the Eighth Dynamic, the Scientology concept of God rests at the very apex of universal survival. As L. Ron Hubbard wrote in Science of Survival:
“No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society....A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”
Unlike religions with Judeo-Christian origins, the Church of Scientology has no set dogma concerning God that it imposes on its members. As with all its tenets, Scientology does not ask individuals to accept anything on faith alone. Rather, as one’s level of spiritual awareness increases through participation in Scientology auditing and training, one attains his own certainty of every dynamic. Accordingly, only when the Seventh Dynamic (spiritual) is reached in its entirety will one discover and come to a full understanding of the Eighth Dynamic (infinity) and one’s relationship to the Supreme Being.
Scientology seeks to bring one to a new level of spiritual awareness where one can reach his own conclusions concerning the nature of God and what lies beyond this present lifetime. Thus, like many Eastern religions, salvation in Scientology is attained through personal spiritual growth and enlightenment.
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Scientology may not have a god, but I'd hate to be the poor soul that is judged poorly when "Staturday" comes around.
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@JeanneBa
I must assume you have not yet reached OT III.
There is no god, it is an implant.
I hope I didn't ruin the ending for you.
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i've had the disturbing experience of having met several acolytes over the years- they always struck me as weak-willed moaners - with something disturbingly hollow about them-
to be sure, i find this same thing in many who are hyper-religious as well, but the neediness, and inculcated feeling of specialness (not the 'differentness') in the Sci'ists, and just the weirdness, always put me off -
however i always have problems with people who have the personal emptiness in them that they cannot fill with knowledge and instead take the easy way out and turn to religion, I mean superstition!
Science fiction isn't good enough on its own? you have to make a weird religion out of it?
Spiritual not religious?
how about commercial without substance?
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I find it very interesting that a lot of the discussion heard today regarding Scientology bears a common thread with aspects of Mormonism as well.
The indicators of cultism defined by the main guest also ring true with the LDS church. When someone leaves the church the other members are encouraged not to associate with them anymore.
Also that the history of how the organizations were founded have both come under fire by documented disparagements from actual events yet the members are able to gloss over these sticky widgets and continue believing in their faiths even though the foundations are so very shaky.
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And Catholics did and do Excommunication and Protestants have a great tradition of Shunning.
There is nothing like threatening a child with the loss of her family and friends, in order to get submissive compliance with a Cult.
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There is, I must say, a key difference: when the vast majority of people leave their church, they're not pursued by lawyers and a CIA-like organization (look up "OSA" on Wikipedia) and aren't told that they can't see their children or grandchildren.
To say that other faiths do this in volume is, quite frankly, not reality.
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@Tom
I was raised catholic but refused to be confirmed.
No one shunned me. No one excommunicated me.
Scientology isn't kidding around. They don't want the few people they have left being affected by people who don't buy into the cult.
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Two anecdotes:
Writer Harlan Ellison once related an amusing story of how Scientology got started. Hubbard of course got his start as a pulp fiction writer in the 1940's, writing science fiction, detective stories, westerns, anything that'd give him a paycheck. In the late 1950's Hubbard was at a writers convention, having a drink with fellow SF writer Jack Williamson. The conversation turned to religion, and the two inebriated writers said why couldn't science fiction writers create their own religion? They made a bet with each other to do just that. Williamson probably forgot about the bet after the hangover left. Not so Mr. Hubbard...
Anecdote #2: L. Ron Hubbard's son, Ron Jr. wrote a particularly angry book about Scientology and his father, entitled L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman?, published in 1987 after many delays and attempts to stop it by the Church. Jr. describes being the same sort of intimidation techniques being used on him as Mr. Hawkins. A link to it can be found here: www.clambake.org/archive/books/mom/Messiah_or_Madman.txt
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Hubbard jr. didn't write a book. That book was written by someone who did not know L. Ron Hubbard, Bent Corydon.
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And L Ron Hubbard didn't know Jesus but his knowledge of history is off: "The man on the cross? There was no Christ," -L. Ron Hubbard
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Thing is, I bet that a good investigative reporter or team of reporters could go back through history and expose all religions as the scams they are.
Like Irenaeus in the early years of Christianity, collecting and burning all of the hundreds of gospels that differed from the version that he wanted to use and promote.
Money and Political and economic Power over People. And it works so well.
They are all a curse on Mankind.
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Agreed.
Mormonism only flourished as it did because there was no internet and they had time to grow in isolation from others.
If they started the same time as scientology, they would be having the same problems.
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I'd like to thank Sarah for the excellent job handling this volatile subject. I respect Jeff Hawkins -- I've read Counterfeit Dreams and I've seen him give talks on the subject. He made it abundantly clear that he has no issue with the belief system of Scientology. His beef, and rightly so, is with the criminal activity prevalent in the higher echelons of the organization.
Thank you for this balanced presentation.
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the whole point, it seems to me, is to attack the core beliefs, as false, fraudulent, disingenuous, et c
it doesn't matter if they are the nicest people, or they lie and cheat - the propagation of superstition itself is the crime - how they go about it is the frosting - don't time and again ask to lick the bowl then wonder why you feel sick afterward
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It is so weird that when you expose the lies of a cult, the cult members shout that they want their lies back. They fight very hard for their lies and against the light of truth.
That is one of the hardest problems that a change agent has to deal with, changing peoples minds, because they fight so hard for their old belief systems even when faced with the new evidence that show that old belief systen to be wrong.
What a sad and shameful thing it is to lie to people in the first place.
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What a bummer that they didn't get to talk about Church marketing.
Here are some of their ads:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ChurchofScientology
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Here's an excellent video on Scientology:
http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com
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To Emily Harris and supporting TOL crew: I want to echo Gargy's sentiments. Scientology and concerns about related abuses can be complex to discuss. I think the topic was covered as best as it could be within the confines of the show, and I praise TOL and OPB for even broaching this subject.
Please continue the excellent work for many more shows to come!
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i've got to add to this too - i could hardly believe that you dared take this on, even in the limited form you did, and you deserve recognition for it -
the varieties of comment demonstrate just how difficult it is to have an informed discussion about something which is far to the other side of intuition, and relies instead on un-investigable dogma and claims of special privilege 'just because', aside from the reliance upon outright lies and exaggerations, from all sides. "How does one know?" "How believable is that?" becomes an unacknowledged presence
for me, those who find fear in the dark yet comfort in ignorance, recognized or unrecognized, are not to be trusted
for many of you posters here, i probably don't have the contempt for you my comments may seem to contain, and my apologies - for others; well, it's just as well the fonts can't be colorized because even all caps wouldn't begin to indicate the indignation your ideas deserve - but oh well, i am not un-mis-interpretable either, and maybe i just misunderstood sometimes
the comments section was much more exciting that the show itself
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I am a 28 year Scientologist living in Portland. I have received nothing but help and support from the Church through many courses. In fact, the Church of Scientology has helped millions through their social betterment programs. I have been a part of that effort and have traveled extensively throughout the US and Canada lecturing on business ethics and organization.
Personally, I find it insulting by how the moderator, Emily Harris, was bias in her questioning and her selection of "guests." I suggest she read over her transcript and determined if what was presented was "objective." That is what OPB is supposed to stand for. Religious bashing is not.
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Why are you insulted? The local Portland Church of Scientology was invited to join Ms. Harris for the show, but declined. If you want someone to blame, visit your local Org.
I'm glad to hear your life has been made better. However, there are thousands of individuals whose lives have been made far worse by their participation in Scientology. It's OK if you don't believe me, but you should feel OK about doubt and as such, you should act upon it by being open-minded and honestly listening to the grievances of others.
Paul Haggis was an OT-VII and had a long history of donating substantial amounts of money to Scientology. As someone who was highly respected within Scientology--and now out--he, of all people, is at least worthy of consideration.
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May we ask how much money and time have you donated or paid into this "church"? I understand members pay for each advance they make along the way toward whatever goal Hubbard conjured up. Wasn't it a money pyramid with Ron (RIP) at the top?
Every church/cult is ultimately about money and power for the ones who invent it or manage it. People with a certain, lets say- intellectual vulnerability- can be persuaded of almost anything and believe they are better off for it. Again, think of 1000 people at Jonestown drinking the cool-aid because a maniac told them: "You'll be going to a better place, now". Duuuh!
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The Church of Scientology did their standard boilerplate handling for whistleblowers or critics: deny everything; attack the critics personally.
Their lame attack on me is to say I am associated with or running with or even leading Anonymous, which they brand as a "terrorist organization."
I was able to read the following reference on the air, which is from Hubbard's Church Policy Letter of 17 February 1966, "Public Investigation Section":
"Associating the attacking group's activities with reprehensible groups in the past by using familiar descriptive words will be found very effective. For example, if the word "white" has been made hateful to the public by some past criminal group we use "white" in our descriptive terminology concerning the group that is attacking us..."
They've chosen to use the word "terrorist" to associate with me. "See? He pals around with terrorists. Therefore he's a terrorist."
Anonymous, of course, is the loose term used to describe the community of online activists who oppose internet censorship. It is not "an organization" as such. They have no leaders, no meetings, no structure. Factually, anyone who does anything anonymously on the internet can call themselves "Anonymous." And any authoritarian regime that wants to censor the flow of information on the internet and keep their own misdeeds secret hates "Anonymous," of course, whether that is Mubarak's government in Egypt or the Church of Scientology.
My entire connection with Anonymous is that I showed up at one of their protests at the local Portland Church of Scientology. The Church's intelligence arm, OSA, photographed me from all angles and then concocted their story to try to smear me by association.That five minute chat with peaceful, law-abiding protesters then became, with the Church spin, "palling around with terrorists."
It's the standard Church handling. Deny everything. Attack the critics personally. Try to discredit them with negative buzzwords, implied associations and vague allegations.
Rather than attacking their critics, Scientologists should be looking for ways to reform their church and cease the abuses of human rights.
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From JeffersonH: "It's the standard Church handling. Deny everything. Attack the critics personally. Try to discredit them with negative buzzwords, implied associations and vague allegations."
Ironic that this sort of policy exists at an organization that claims to be open-minded and wanting to help people.
Last time I checked, we learn things by engaging in dialogue with others. Not attacking them. Not engaging in ad hominem tactics. And especially not by sending in lawyers and CIA-like thugs.
These are not the behaviors of a good, healthy organization that wants to change the world for the better.
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Boilerplate much, Jeff? Looks like an awful lot of copypasta.
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@Louanne: I love your copypasta--all 3,600 dishes!
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I've been a Scientologist for 31 years. The classes and counseling saved my marriage, saved it. Using a very workable moral code, our son is not on drugs, happily married and involved in his community, as are we. See www.scientology.org for more about the millions all over the world who are helped by our religion.
I question the value and importance of attacking a religion, this group that is doing more right than wrong. I didn't appreciate Emily's focus, it was obvious she already had a negative agenda. I'm going to turn her off next time.
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Based on what you said, we should now put little value or importance on calling out sexual abuse in the Catholic church because it's a religion.
This is neither about Scientology's moral code nor what it has done for anyone: it's about abuses that thousands of people have reported, including ones that have caused serious mental or physical harm.
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@Dayle: Turning off Emily's show means that you clearly haven't applied the Tech described in TR0. Don't turn away: CONFRONT.
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It is absolutely amazing to me how anyone with even a dozen gray cells functioning can truly believe the howling nonsense being peddled by these cult con artists. One must have a really screwed up life to fall victim to this Scientology rubbish. Scientology's view of reality is akin to belief in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny.
The Renaissance and the Enlightenment appear to have less influence on Boobus americanus with each passing year.
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speaking of boobus americanus, maybe sarah palin will embrace sci'ogy - both seem to be profoundly anti-intellectual
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It's unfortunate that most Scientologists will simply tune out any criticism of their Church, as Larry Wright predicted in his perceptive New Yorker article. The reaction of this person is typical: "they are attacking my Church."
I say this is unfortunate because the movement to reform the corrupt leadership of the Church of Scientology should come from the rank and file Scientologists, much as the reform of the Catholic Church came from lay Catholics, in the wake of the priest abuse scandals. This sort of popular reformation simply will not happen in Scientology as they willfully blind themselves to any negative information about their Church. They don't look, and they will not see it, and thus they actually enable and perpetuate the abuse - in essence, tolerating the destruction of their own Church from within. Reform of the Church of Scientology can only come from outside pressure.
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She is a zit on the face of the body politic.
This essentially stupid person continuing to be thought worthy of the presidency is one more milestone marking our national decline. But who knows? Maybe her candidacy fits the reality of our new America. Right down there with American Idol and Desperate Housewives.
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louanne - here's something you can further sharpen your teeth on-
'apostate' has an early meaning of 'runaway slave'
apropos, no?
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Rather funny. Good find.
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Someone kicked the Hornet's Nest of Scientologists....I predict the thread will reach 150 Comments.
Faith is a funny thing. It is clung to more tightly in times of stress. As it is in embattled muslims, it is no different in North American Cults.
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Someone mentioned Jonestown. I listened to the audiotapes of that, a few months after it happened and it was one of the most horrible things I have ever heard.
Religion. No thanks.
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@Tom: It's fair to say that any group of people is capable of these actions; to limit it to religion would be myopic. Exhibit A: Orwell's "Animal Farm". Correlation is not causation.
Religion, government, organization, knitting club: they are all capable of organizing bad behavior and abuse. I think this is a more useful and pragmatic tack to take, and allows us to more carefully study key elements of abusive groups: acceptance of perceived power, unreasonable promises, discouraging critical thinking, etc.
I am agnostic on the issue of religion: I'd say belief in either God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster ("Touched By His Noodly Appendage") is fine as long as we concomitantly work to cultivate a thoughtful, ethical worldview enlightened by socio/cultural/economic contexts. Maybe I ask for too much, but I'd rather die trying.
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@Louanne: Do you work for the Church of Scientology or any affiliated organization? (Partial list of affiliated organizations here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Scientology_organizations)
Here's why I ask: http://tinyurl.com/4ntqu9v
I hear the Office of Special Affairs has a heck of a severance package!
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To answer your question: no. I am a member of the Church of Scientology in Los Angeles. And I run a blog and website called Scientology Myths (scientologymyths.wordpress.com)
To comment on your link: childish. Yes, I am commenting a lot on Scientology issues. You can google my name and will find some of them. And yes, I did comment a lot in the past week, same or similar on same or similar articles. Do you expect me to change my opinion from article to article?
I see you got busy after I went to work. And how about yourself, you don't have a job?
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@Louanne: Jeff's is pretty good, but I daresay you're the Executive Chef of Copypasta! It's a good crown: FLAUNT IT :-)
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ooooh, a fame w h o r e, can i get your ottograph
no offense, you obviously glory in it, and i'll bet you live up to the very priciest lowest LA has to offer - congrats - of course that's not ... oh i don't want to say hard ... so i'll say difficult
you curse well too, so obviously you've had the sensitization courses the secret society offers
**** your *** now, eh? (wink wink)
do you make up the myths yourself (you don't seem that imaginative), or does the secret brotherhood pass them along to you and you disseminate the lies, i mean myths?
do you lie around the pool all day, or do you drag the truth around like an old towel, wiping up the wet spots?
you must really care about us all the way up here, and you all the way down there - are the sci'ligists (pronounced silage-ists) thinking of building a survival bunker in our area? do you know what the weather is like up here? or did the galactic overlords give you the secret technology to turn fog into, ummm, haze, light haze - that's what we'll call it.
well, i can't wait to hear back from you- i'm sure we are an important constituency that you'll want to subdue - i mean, keep in touch with
all the beast, i mean best - gotta go, there's a 10 foot alien at my door now,
ooo, and a rocket ship too
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@Louanne: so how is life working at your Org? Rumor has it you posted 3,600 comments in a day or two to the New Yorker article.
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Minions! it's the minions what posted 3600 replies - it's like slave labor never went out of fashion- and you'd think with the galactic overlords' technology one could just think the response, but apparently not, so...
you need minions to do the dirty work for you
but lou anne gets the credit
or at least she takes it
¿change her opinion??
certainly not, i couldn't imagine she would have the faculties to do that- that would imply she could think for herself
-may the heavens forfend!
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@Louanne: Well, I would certainly expect a bit more creativity from someone as imbued with The Tech as you! I take the tack of responding personally and uniquely to all entries.
And yes, I am a proud entrepreneur with a couple of businesses, and have the luxury of being able to take time to comment on things that matter to me. Thanks for your concern about my professional circumstances!
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I really want to thank louanne and the other Scientologists for showing up and demonstrating exactly what Scientology is all about.
Denial and personal attack.
Anyone interested in knowing why Scientologists communicate so strangely, read up on cults. Scientologists' reactions are very typical cult behavior.
In comparison, Jeff Hawkins sounded very gentle and intelligent -- and didn't say anything bad to his attackers or even say bad things about the religion itself. A real class act.
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Thankfully, on this comment page, among the hate-mongering bigots who've never read a Scientology book, or taken a course, who know nothing of what Scientology's all about and can only parrot the lies and distortions of cynics, naysayers and apostates, I see a few cooler heads who can address the subject rationally and who recognize the benefits of this religion to Mankind.
So, to anyone else, who's not a narrow-minded bigot, who is also not a Scientologist, but who IS standing on the sidelines wondering what this fray is all about, I say this:
Think for yourself.
Read a book by Ron Hubbard instead of listening to others' often whacked out interpretations of him, his religion or his writings.
Scientology, perennially attacked by the running dog press, anti-religious fanatics, as well as corrupt people with something to hide, for which they could be jailed (who are paranoically afraid the Scientologists will find out), well, this Church would have long since gone by the wayside, except for one fact: It delivers what it promises. Spiritual freedom.
Check it out.
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whoa, another schill for the 'religion',
i mean superstition/buy-your-way-in club
did you meet tom cruz? or his double?
you're a little bit slick, but still obvious -
what was your weakness? your inability to make it in the world, glorious as it is, without falling prey to questionable tactics and the marketing of hype?
was it a girl-friend? another guy? your looks bought you early entrance? it sure wasn't what you did with whatever education you got -
you mean to tell us that sci'ligism "promises spiritual freedom"? is that an absolute promise - like windex promises clear glass? if you're not happy, do you get your money back? in thirty days?
can you define that happiness? do you fly without wings? do you soar with no fear of the rocks below? is it in a pill they give you?
do you get to see the aliens themselves, or are they cardboard images you get to take your photo next to?
nobody hates you, nobody even cares enough about sci'ligism to hate it - disdain is the worst i feel for it, i find it despicable, but not hate-able - what is hate anyway? a word folks like you toss around when they get flustered - perhaps it's what you do to your toaster when it burns your fingers when you stick them in to retrieve the toast, like you're not supposed to do - or perhaps it's just an empty cliché that is current -
I'm still curious about the compound in Humboldt county? have you been there? Do you think they'll ever let you see it? What is it for? When you all get there, how do you think those folks in Humboldt will treat you? You know, they think they are god's chosen. You're gonna have to walk softly. You think you can do that? They'll shoot strangers, and they don't like sheep. They do like bull. You might fit in after all.
Maybe you meant "hatters"? I'm not sure there are any hatters here - but virtually, i suppose we could be anything.
Did you ever think this might be a test given you by the overlords? Do you suppose they are really looking for the meek, or maybe meat, maybe they want the meat?
Read the book? - i started it - i was really young, i thought it really was sci-fi - big disappointment there_ Heinlein didn't try to market a religion from "Stranger in a Strange Land". You think your boy is better than Heinlelin?? why? L ron's lousy as literature and shallow as a story, and ersatz as a philosophy -so what's the point? You were taken in? that says something about your credulity, not my taste in literature.
Are you in LA too?
will we keep hearing from you? are you wearing a vest? 'cuz that would make you a vested interest
gotta go - nice of you to drop by, watch out for the alien on your way out
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@WriterBoy: Chances are, you will not read my words, as you are trained to ignore dissent. But, just in case... Actually, no, we DON'T need to read Scientology's writings to know there is something quite bad going on at your church. Just as I wouldn't expect anyone to read Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto or Al Queda's missives to know that there was something quite wrong with the Nazi movement, Mao's Cultural Revolution, or Radical Islam. Humans judge by actions, and Scientology's actions have been very wrong. From Operation Snow White and the death of Lisa McPherson in the past to Scientology's admissions of violence in their workplace, forced abortions and countless individuals who had to pick up their lives and start all over again because Scientology left them penniless now, it's been proven to me that there may very well be some good things in your "Tech"--and that a broken clock is right twice a day. Please call your Org and have them send a real apologist for your religion since The Portland Org didn't have the spheres to make the short drive to the OPB studios to do so.
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@WriterBoy: P.S. Yes, I've read Scientology's materials: they're plastered all over the Internet for free. Including OT-III. In other news, I didn't die by reading it: I guess KSW must have exceptions for non-Scientologists you call "wogs".
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@WriterBoy
"It delivers what it promises."
Ah, if only it did.
But there are no actual Scientology Releases, no real Clears, no one with "OT Powers", no recovery from drugs, no handling of illiteracy. No results.
I feel so sorry for you. If only it "delivered what it promised".
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Show me any human...ANY human who has the abilities of a Clear or an OT as stated by L Ron.
If OTs existed, there would be no critics.
Scientology does not deliver what it promises.
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Thankfully, on this page, you will find people who want to Clear the planet of hate, war and suffering--and can give you great reasons why it won't by the Scientology organization doing it. Knowledge is FREE and does not require that you buy a BRIDGE
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You have seen here, Scientologists' comments.
This is Scientology: In a recent comment, the Scientologist assigned to "handle" this discussion, complains about all the "hate" he claims is in the comments, but then he uses all these terms to describe the critics:
"Hate-mongering bigots", "parrot lies and distortions", "cynics", "naysayers", "narrow-minded bigot", "running dog press", "anti-religious fanatics", "corrupt people" and he asserts that all Scientology whistle-blowers are guilty of crimes "for which they could be jailed".
Who is "spreading hate" here?
This is Scientology. This is the way Scientologists actually think. This is what they are trained to say and do.
"Just try it," they urge. "Just try it, then you will become like us." -
Orwellian and chilling...
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I've never wante a world where everyone was just like me. It would be boring--and Nature shows us that monocultures are doomed to die...
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I wonder how much money Hubbard made off that bar bet that Harlan Ellison talked about. Anyone know how much he had at the end?
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Why do Church of Scientology need a Marketing Dept?
It is a religion not a business. All other major religions have no such budget or pretension. I know the Buddists don't have an ad campaign or Superbowl Commercials
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Other religions have church supported "missionaries" in some form.
And Evangelicalism is very much "marketing" of their version of Christianity.
And look at the Billy Graham family "marketing" crusades, and of course his neighbors complain about his many big black limosines and swimming pool at his huge mansion.
And the old timey tent revivalists.
They are all financial and/or power hustle-scams.
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Much of this "discussion" is really a name-calling contest.
Next month I will have been in Scientology for 40 years. I was unhappy for most of my life prior to Scientology, despite diligent forays into every system of thought I could find that purported to make sense of the world, and every other "solution" to human ills that seemed to offer any hope. I hid my despair behind a mask of intellectual cynicism, so you would have thought I was above all that. I smoked three packs a day and had never had a satisfying relationship with a woman.
Within less than two months of beginning Scientology training and processing, I had found a wonderful woman to whom I've been married for almost 38 years. We've raised two lovely and astonishing daughters--both now active in Scientology--and have two grandchildren, with another on the way. We've had fruitful, productive and adventurous lives. We learned how to help people, and we continue to do that every day. Some will claim that helping them with Scientology is no help at all, yet as a result we have hundreds of lifelong friends. Though we've gone through our share of tribulations, we are deeply and honestly happy.
I realize that it is upsetting to some people that Scientology can provide the tools to accomplish such things. There is really nothing I can say to them that will make them feel better. In all honesty, I would love to make them feel better if that were possible. For the rest, I offer my personal experience for what it's worth.
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@degedidear
That's wonderful. I know that a number of people feel that Scientology has helped them. I don't think anyone was denying that.
But your experience does not prove that everything the Church of Scientology does is good. It does not prove that L. Ron Hubbard did not lie. It does not prove that David Miscavige doesn't abuse his staff.
And your personal experience does not prove anything beyond that: You had some good personal experiences with Scientology..
On the other hand, the New Yorker article, and others like it, with extensive independent investigation, verification and fact-checking does prove many things about David Miscavige, Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard.
Things you are not allowed to know or see.
The fact that you have been forbidden from looking, does not mean those facts don't exist. The fact that you are forbidden from reading these exposés does not mean they are false. The church's draconian restrictions only mean the Church of Scientology doesn't want you to know certain things, that's all.
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@degedidear
You said "Much of this "discussion" is really a name-calling contest."
I've read through all the comments. Are you aware that most of the name-calling is coming from Scientologists?
Aren't you ashamed of such behavior in the name of Scientology?
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@JustBill: Very well spoken sir. There are lots of things, Scientology included, that have worked very poorly for others. It's vital to look out and see outside of ourselves regularly. If Scientology really worked, there would be no opposition...
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Louanne-take some time off, take in the sunset-“blow” off some steam.
take your camera go snap some landscape photos! before the snow melts!-
Have a couple of cocktails loosen to up, take a drive in the countryside-of course NOT after a few drinks! don’t drink and drive!I assume you’ve learned your lesson.
celebrate the Green Bay Packers superbowl win!
go out on a long long walk or do some Cross Country skiing get in some much needed exercise! take some pictures and share them with us!
the world will still be here tomorrow. -
Better late than never.
And the earlier the better. Übersetzung Deutsch Englisch Übersetzung Deutsch Niederändisch
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Comments are now closed.
An interesting fact of Scientology, is its base in Hollywood, its popularity among Hollywood stars, and its embrace of Science Fiction.
This maybe be the only religion theology based on a bad Sci-Fi Movie. L. Ron Hubbard wrote sci-fi novels, screen plays, and dreamed of producing his masterpiece. Battlefield Earth was produced after his death, in the pregnant year 2000, as a warning of the future year 3000 when cannibal overlords rule the earth enslaving all humanity to mine for precious gold.
Though it featured the hot talents of John Travolta, it was decried by critics as one of the worst films ever made and was the among the greatest box office flops of the time.
I would rather see a religion based on a successful movie franchise like Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galatica or even Barbarella.
Yes the spaceship will pick you up. Seats are limited. Be among the chosen. And stop taking those antipsychotic medication...it will make you think strange thoughts.
Cult film= Cult Religion.