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When I was in fifth grade I remember I wanted to be perfect. I wore pretty clothes, pulled my hair back just so, and was nice to everyone — no matter what they did to me. When the other girls in my class decided I was a bit of a nerd, and started to harass me and call me names, I smiled politely, was modest and polite and always said "I'm sorry."
But what happened to me during that time? Author Rachel Simmons would likely say I was trying to be a "good girl." She would also suggest that my actions then reflect on my adult life now. As the founder of the Girls Leadership Insititute and the author of The Curse of the Good Girl, Simmons spends much of her time talking to young girls, and trying to find out why they behave the way they do, and how that will affect them later on.
Simmons says some of the most destructive behavior among girls is when they try to be perfect all the time. In these cases girls stop expressing their real feelings; and spend much of their time criticizing themselves instead. They lose their confidence, hide mistakes; go behind peoples' backs. They move further and further away from being true. A "good girl" according to Simmons is never "good enough."
Does your daughter, or do the young women in your life, reflect a full range of emotions? Are they willing to make mistakes? Or are they always striving to be perfect? If you are a teacher, how do the girls in your class behave? If you are a parent, what are you doing to encourage your daughter to be confident and express herself? If you are a mom, are you trying to be the perfect mother? What has that meant?
GUESTS:
- Rachel Simmons: Author of The Curse of the Good Girl and founder of the Girls Leadership Institute
UPDATE: We neglected to mention on the air that Rachel will be speaking about her book at Powell's in Portland tonight (Tuesday, Sept. 22) at 7:30pm. More details here.
Tagged as: parenting · teenager · women
Photo credit: Brian Majewski
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This is true for both men and women. Its our schizophrenic and contradictory clash between sex and Christian ethics. We really need to stop focusing on gender when the real issues are transgender and global in nature. Enough with the victimhood of women. Its the victimhood of of everyone.
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A GOOD GIRL SENDING A GOOD EID AZHA MESSEGE TO HIS FAMILY OR FRIENDS
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Women's culture seems incredibly competitive and the only thing that rivals it is probably gay men's culture.
The indoctrination of women through magazines, commercials, role models and parents who make statements like "women aren't as good at math" is alarming. Sitcoms which consistently showcase overweight, unintelligent fathers who are unapologetic about their hypermasculinity paired with hyper-skinny neurotic women who seek power only through deceptive and passive-agressive behaviors are a frightening example for anyone, let alone young women.
Don't even get me started on the porn industry . . . For what it's worth, studies have shown that sex is more satisfying for couples in countries where men and women are considered more equal. I believe that humans are designed to be happiest when they can cooperate in a give-and-take situation.
I hope we soon realize that by not allowing women to live up to their potential in the work force we are enforcing a kind of brain drain on our economy.
Being a feminist is not just about supporting the choice for women to do the same things as men, but for men to acknowledge that they can have pride in choosing to do things that are tradionally thought of as feminine.
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This is a very timely topic for me. In the 80's, I was one of the good girls. I was senior class president, choir and band member, accomplished flutist, daughter of a minister, good student. I was the English teacher's single student employee, I worked at a greenhouse on Sundays and vacations, I babysat. I didn't have sex, go dancing, dress provocatively, or even use bad language although I have to admit that I had kissed a boy--shh, don't tell. I told myself that because I was responsible (and everyone praised me for that quality), I needed to be an example.
As you can imagine, by the time I went to college (yes, of course I went to college--B.S. elementary education), I was burned out on extracurricular activities, but still blissfully continuing that self-destructive path towards perfection, living the expectation.
Now, at age 40 and with the help of a really wonderful therapist, I'm just discovering my inner critic and learning how that has shaped who I have become. I find that even now most things in my life are never good enough--my body image, my financial status, my goals, my daily accomplishments, the state of my house, my children's behavior. It's been really distressing to me that I could, even as I parent two young boys, pass along my struggle with perfectionism. At times, I have been thankful that I didn't have girls because of that very real possibility.
As I look back on my life so far, I can see that I have never been allowed to be myself, to embrace my imperfections, the things that make me who I am, to be the "bad girl". I am on a journey that will allow me to do just that. I will say that it is extremely difficult to give myself permission to not be perfect or care what other people think. I imagine that I would be a less angst-ridden person if I had learned how to develop kindness and compassion towards myself when I was younger.
This is such an important topic. Thank you for addressing it. I support anyone and anything that will help girls learn how to be their real selves, imperfections and all. The Curse of the Good Girl is on my book list when I next go to Powell's.
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There is such a culture of "shoulds" for women in our society and it is perpetuated by the women I know more than the men I know. There is an unattainable standard of perfection and when we realize that we're not meeting it, we throw in a "should" statement. "I should vacuum the carpets again." "I should be more patient with my children." "I should be bringing over a lasagna for that family." It's out of control and we need to stop.
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...and it is perpetuated by the women I know more than the men I know.
My girlfriend and I had a similar discussion after the whole "scandal" with Lizzi Miller's photo in Glamour magazine. The interesting part of the hour BBC's "World Have Your Say" spent discussing it was that almost all of the vitriol and ire came from women. Men were mostly apathetic but, in many cases, supportive of the model.
I discussed this with my girlfriend, and we agreed that, while it may have been male dominance in the past, women have reached some critical mass and they are now in a chain reaction fueled by their own television, magazine, and fashion industries. Fashion and conformity is now a competition among women that has very little to do with attracting a mate.
Seriousness aside, I joked with her that it was actually a brilliant move by men. Now, we get the benefits of women striving to be perfect while also getting the benefits of being the good guys that are supportive and nurturing.
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I could be simply that I am male, but making this a women's issue seems kind of artificial. There is a much larger issue about conformity and bad parenting here, and it is kind of myopic to look at it as a women's issue.
I have known parents that forced their male children into molds...different molds, but the oppressive/repressive effects are the same.
Forcing children to be something they are not, whether through societal expectations or bad parenting, is a bad thing regardless of the child's gender.
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Thanks for your thoughtful remark. I completely agree. There are many pressures on boys, young men, and fathers as well.
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I agree with you to a certain extent. I don't think it is myopic to look at one side. However, as a suggestion, "Think Out Loud" should devote a hour to similar issues for men and another to those who are of a different gender identiity. This should allow for a better balanced conversation, allowing all to respond and be involved.
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Yes! I feel a huge pressure to be a "good guy". To not fail, to not risk, to not rock the boat. To not disagree in a meeting. Fear of conflict.
As a guy, I don't sit in such a way as to take up "space". Especially not in a business meeting where there are superiors present. Please don't stereotype all of us guys as sitting in a way that "takes up space".
Yes, I suspect girls have more pressure to act in some of these ways, but please do not discount the fact that men who aren't in a power position in our society (like bosses, etc.) have every bit as much pressure on them to act in certain expected ways.
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@ Daniel L
Well, I have to admit that I am just going by the summary. For some reason, I cannot listen to the live stream today.
"Myopic" may have been strong, but something about the summary just did not jive with me. I guess a more accurate way to put it is that it felt like we were approaching the discussion as a one-sided problem, i.e. it is a womens' issue...period.
But, again, I cannot listen to the live stream. I am sure the actual discussion is much better.
I second your suggestion too, by the way.
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One should look into the types of women that are considered role models. I am seeing a pendulum shift from some of the saucy and racy women (Madonna to state one) to one who is more of good but channels the rebel within to more positive ways (recently Taylor Swift). But is this shift a potentially long lasting one or just a blot in the current media who likes to play into the lowest common denominator?
As for me, a gentleman, how do we relate to women who are considered "emotionally immature"? Do we be careful, just give them the straight up truth about how one feels or is there some sort of middle ground?
Thank you.
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In Women's Self-Defense class they tell you to yell, "NO!" when fending off an attacker. At first it's difficult to let that loud noise out. It's uncomfortable and the opposite of the "good girl" self.
What we are taught as girls undermines our strength. When I was teenager I was told I couldn't be alone because I wasn't strong enough to defend myself if someone were to harass me.
Good girls are taught to be self-effacing, to be afraid and not taught to be strong.
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When I listened to the theory Rachel Simmons presents about girls in her book I was astonished at how it described me almost exactly. I feel that most of the time I am completely unable to identify how I feel or even how I 'should' feel. It's painfully crippling not even being able to put a name on how I am feeling. It's not a lack of feeling that I have because I am a very sensitive person. It's just I can't talk about them or even identify them. And I think a lot of that has to do with how I was brought up, culturally and in my family. The women in my family are all expected to fill the role, which I see as old fashioned. We are all expected to get married young, never work and start having children as soon as possible. When I decided to go to college everyone was shocked. But it was expected of my brother to go and get a good job but, the thought of the baby of the family who is also a girl getting a degree and a job was outlandish. I struggled through college and I think a lot of that has to do with the discouragement I have received all my life to try and break out of the path my family expects me to take.
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I appreciate your comment. I have heard that it is good for young children to be exposed to ideas about emotions and have been mindful of this with my daughter (4). Trying to find resources, or even words, to help illustrate emotions has been difficult for me. I wonder if the English language has many words for emotions?
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Well stated. Men are required as boys to disassociate from their feelings. Especially to not acknowledge physical pain least they be viewed as less than a man; or show tears least they be considered less than a man. In my day it was become a medical doctor to earn lots of money to get a beautiful girl/woman. Be successful to attract a beautiful girl/woman.
I always imagine how we as a society speak with horror and negative tones about the man who dressed up as a woman to escape a sinking ship. He should have been willing to die rather than escape certain death that way. The solider who will charge up a hill to certain death in combat rather than be called a coward. Yes, men too have their burden. And sometimes it really does kill us. Being an emotional rack is far better than being dead.
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The comment "good girl" presumes that the adult is making a judgement on the child. When this idea was presented to me, I had an "a ha" moment, especially since I have perfectionist tendencies.
Since then, I've tried to change the discussion with my daughter so that the judgement comes from within her instead of from me.
Staying away from language that transmits judgements, like calling her good, and instead using language that is specific, like, "you kept trying and you did it."
We also have a positive attitude toward errors in our house.
I must say that I still see her withdraw from some activities because things aren't going as she wants them too. I worry about that. She is 4, by-the-way.
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In movies and TV, we see the girl being easily manipulated by the boy when he (falsely) accuses her of being a tease or "good".
Can you please discuss this idea of why nice girls hate the idea of being called "good" and how they can avoid the trap of needing to react to it?
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As a doula I have witnessed a sort of "good girl" phoenomenon at many hospital births: often when a woman is laboring to push, sweaty, grunting, loud - a doctor or nurse will say, "Good Girl!" I'm sure the intention is to encourage, but it is strangely disorienting - and in some cases very distracting to the labouring mother - almost like a reminder to BE a good girl at a time when much "good girl" behavior (cleanliness, quietness, smiling) is not only unnecessary, but almost impossible to pull off.
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I substitue in elementary schools and see a different "good" girl just about every day. To me the telling characteristic is that she feels duty bound, and takes on extra responsibilities, or is very quiet.
Regarding making mistakes as one of the guests mentioned -boys also don't want to be seen making mistakes, so they will bluff their way through mistakes where girls will use the extra responsibilities, or being nice as a sort of buffer to build credibility or avoid scrutiny.
David
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Hi everyone. I am a happy dad of a wonderful little girl and have come to learn already of the differences between boys and girls on building confidence. I can only speak for myself, a man, but here's my experience.
My little girl definitely responds to mom better than me. (A blow to my own confidence I might add.) She will often go to mom for resolution before me and go to me for knowledge before mom. (OK, so I still have a purpose :)
I am enjoying fatherhood immensely, even this challenge to chance to learn a little more on emotional growth. So here's my current take on the difference between girls and boys.
I think when girls feel an emotion it is intertwined with many other feelings. These can be other emotions, memories, opinion, issues and more. A boy on the other hand often experiences his feelings in isolation of other feelings.
As a dad, I often try to resolve issues by clarifying the problem, identifying what will fix it and saying OK try again. This works for boys because the emotions are for the most part isolated to the issue at hand: solve that issue and you are done. But for girls, the emotions are not isolated even though what triggered them may have been. There can be so many other issues, that any attempt to identify and fix it results in even more damage.. Girls may grow to feel the world will never understand my feelings. They may grow to isolate themselve. Work environments in particular may be tough because it has even less time for complexities.
But, my daughter is a girl and I want her to be her, a girl, and be confident.
Thanks for the show!
Dad
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I think that we need to find a middle ground, where we can strike a balance in our behavior. It is okay to stand up for ourselves while being humane at the same time. The women who acheive in my line of work (physical sciences) are often very harsh, aggressive and sometimes cruel because that is how they have behaved to survive in this traditionally male-dominated occupation. I reject the notion, however, that "You won't get anywhere by being nice" --actual words spoken to me by my female mentor. I plan to celebrate my ability to contribute instructively and intelligently to my field, and to do so while preserving my female compassion.
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The predominate religion in the US (and the western world) is the Abraham religions, and that religion teaches that people are born in original sin, that babies are born bad. And we spend the rest of our lives trying to change that, we can never be perfect enough.
Religion is the foundation of the problems. Babies are not born bad, they are just born.
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I completely disagree with this generalized statement about the monothestic religions being the root or foundation of problems. One should look through the religious texts and what the faith teach now than making such a statement. Catholism, for instance, has a high following for the Virgin Mary and what she stands for. The church also has many Women Saints. By the way, babies are not born bad as you would see it, the concept of original sin is more complex than how you are portraying it.
Why don't you look into how us, human beings, use the the 'word of God' than the 'word' itself?
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I hate religion as much as the next guy, but I would make the argument that religion is just a tool for oppression. You can't blame religion for oppression anymore than you can blame a gun for killing someone. However, religion, like a gun, just makes it so easy.
Now that I just made that statement, I find it interesting that I have the Old & New Testaments and the Qur'an on my bookshelf, and collectable assault rifles and handguns in a safe Yet, I do not really believe in either. It's like my own little collection of the worst parts of humanity.
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Isn't the Virgin Mary symbolic of the ultimate "good girl?" She embodies the idea of the soft, fertile, and nurturing mother-figure without being sullied by the sordidness of conventional sex.
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I think that "original sin" is the recognition that no one is perfect. That gives us all room to accept our faults, make mistakes, forgive ourselves for the mistakes we make, and learn to make different choices. It's a journey not a destination.
As an opinionated, strong-willed woman I struggle even to this day with the fear that stating my position will make others not like me - this is from years of being told "be nice" and "oh now, come on, you don't really think/feel that way..." when, yes, I did think that and I do feel that way. Much better to tell my daughter "well done" than "good girl."
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Thankfully someone is talking about female identity. To this day society offers divergent paths for boys and girls. These separate paths lead to very different expectations for what is possible for each of the sexes. While we have seen a handful of women in powerful positions this should not suggest that we have achieved any real level of sexual equality. We have a long way to go. To those of you who see no difference in the issues and experiences of boys and girls I suggest you consult the massive amount of feminist literature.
Frank
Father of you young girl.
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I've noticed that in highs school & college I received a lot of recognition for being the "good" girl. Awards for good grades, athletic accomplishment etc. But now, that I'm 35 years old and a stay at home mom, despite the fact that my efforts are the same and I feel my success and accomplishments with the children are incredible, I do not receive any recognition or praise. So, now I feel this dissconnect and anger because I think what I was doing when I was young was not for myself but rather to receive praise and now that I see I continue to do things for praise (rather than for myself) and when I don't get it, I get angry.
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I was sent away to a strict, all girls boarding school at the age of 12 years as my family lived in a remote town in country Australia, where there was no nigh school. I spent my teen years conforming, I was the smart girl at school with top grades, everyone expected me to go on to great things, and I was kind-of ignored as being 'good' and being ok, I didn't need extra attention. I was thought of being so 'good' that I was voted in as the chapel prefect, and carried a cross in church every Sunday, just because of my reputation. But I'm not a good girl, I am smart, I like to conform, but I'd prefer just to be 'myself'. I am now trying to allow our daughter to be her own person.
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As a 38-year old woman I still am faced with the demand to be nice, agreeable and accomodating quite often. The workplace is where this usually occurs. I am known for being outspoken, a "straightshooter" or "blunt". I don't believe in tiptoeing around a legitimate work issue just because someone may get upset. I worked at a bar for several years and for some time was the only female bartender. I made a suggestion regarding the use of a particular product instead of another and on another occasion was giving a new employee some tips about our system of running things on the night shift. Both times one of the owners, a woman, felt that I was disrespecting her and being "bossy". I eventually had to quit the job because of this person and her treatment of me (she stood 2 inches from my face and yelled at me in front of customers who were waiting to be served, and she was unwilling to allow me to explain to her that I was just trying to get a new employee oriented with the "flow" of the work). The men who work there are permitted to make any suggestions they desire, even voice complaints, and they are listened to and treated legitimately. I know the bar and restaurant industry is notorious for having crazy owners, but I have seen this gender disparity my whole working life in treatment of employees and the credibility that they are given. I have not heard of one of my male coworkers being called "disresectful" for merely suggesting that a certain product be used at work. The standard for is much higher for women. When a man has an idea he is considered intelligent or forward-thinking, we are often considered a bitch. It's like, if you're female, don't speak up.
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Nice girlism was strong in my family; white, southern, protestant, my mother had three sisters, my father was the youngest of a large family who pretty much ran wild. Southerners frow up saying Ma'am and Sir. I, too, wanted to go to mecdical school. My parents insisted that I should become a nurse to see if I liked medicine; then I could continue on to my MD. In spite of the fact that my IQ places me in the top 2% I was always not good enough. Failed freshman chem so that I was safely off the MD track. I was the oldest of three girls. It has taken me years to realize that my mother suppressed my competitiveness as it mad her feel less than adequate if I excelled. I'm still "nice" at 75, everybody's favorite Mom, or Buddy. I'm afraid that I raised my daughtr to be like me.
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Quite honestly, I can't relate to may of the posts here. It's sad to know that just 30 years after burning bras, women are still experiencing what society expected of them at the turn of the century. When I was in middle school and high school, I never had dates to the school dances. And I knew why: I was so opinionated and outspoken about how I felt about everything that I think boys were actually scared to ask me out--and I can see how it would be easier to ask the girl who is conforming (whether she knows it or not). I was still friends with guys, but I was easy enough to become a romantic option for them.
As the guests on the show explained, I considered myself to be "popular," I was tall, not overweight and kept up with the "latest fashions." I was in Honor Society and active in every extra curriculum possible (ranging, yes, from horses to swim team to speech and debate). But I was also hunky dory with the nerds, the jocks, the cowboys, the good girls. I loved everyone, but I can't say that everyone loved my opinion and my tendencies to speak out in things I believed in. :-)
At college and in the film program I was enrolled at at USC, I felt I spoke my mind so that those good girls can hopefully release what's on their mind in a positive exchange. One of the serious backlashes to my outspokeness in my film classes, however, was that I quickly was labeled a "feminist" and therefore people considered me completely opposed and biased to convetional forms of media.
I will say that at college, possibly one of the most conformist, non-individualistic programs at USC was the Greek Life. Fraternities may work, but sororities definitely don't. I found them to be the epitome of sisterhood gone wrong--they dressed the same, chose the same major, overdrank and overdrugged themselves, and all took to the same techniques to please their boyfriends. Sigh.
Enough about me, I wanted to post a question for Ms. Simmons: can she please elaboarte on how she feels that this complex that young girls are still experiencing today is specific only to girls and not boys? How is this an engendered complex still?
Secondly, what kind of remedy or recommendation can Ms. Simmons provide for the girls themselves and any parents who get a hold of her book?
Overall, a great topic, thanks Think Outloud!
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Rachel came off very well. Very good examples of why this is more of an issue for girls than for boys. Very well spoken & I bet the book is great.
Wow! I like the huge contrast between the teen girls on the show today & how reversed the stereo types turned out. How realistic is an example of a rich girl who's sport is equestrian competition? Sure, you could substitute any sport for horseback riding, so it works for the discussion, but still.
I was very impressed by the inner city living, public school attending, javelin throwing, African American girl. She was very bright, articulate & thoughtful with her answers & examples. She clearly has a good head on her shoulders & I bet she'll do great things in life. Whereas the rich white girl from the private prep school (that I went to) could barely get a sentence out. When she did talk, it was mostly about the cost of hauling her horse across the country & hoping not to let her parents down after they blow that kind of cash on her "sport" of choice. Not much insight about how real society imposes expectations on her & how she either conforms or fights them. It's sooo hard growing up rich, nobody understands me.
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To me, a good girl is a virtuous young women who has high moral standards, a girl who has sexual purity and is chaste, who is unselfish in her desires. Of course mistakes will be made along the way, but I believe it is possible to progress toward perfection. A "good girl" is not exempt from making bad decisions, she learns from them and changes for good. I think those who say the concept or persona of a good girl is destructive are saying so because they themselves have guilt or believe that high moral standards are no longer neccessary in todays society or of little importance. Everything that I have said could also be said about a good boy. I hope society will return to virtue and not give up so easily. I hope for myself as well that we will not give in to bodily pleasures and appetites that overcome the wholesome and divine.
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The curse of the good boy too.
I remember that in seventh grade I wondered if I could go to the hospital and have my blood cleaned so that I could be a good kid. I know now that religion was the problem, not me.
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To me, a acceptable babe is a blameless adolescent women who has top moral standards, a babe who has animal abstention and is chaste, who is altruistic in her desires. Of advance mistakes will be fabricated forth the way, but I accept it is accessible to advance against perfection. A "good girl" is not absolved from authoritative bad decisions, she learns from them and changes for good. I anticipate those who say the abstraction or persona of a acceptable babe is annihilative are adage so because they themselves accept answerability or accept that top moral standards are no best neccessary in todays association or of little importance.
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When I was a freshman in high school, the vice principal called me into his office and told me that I need to dress more modestly because I was just too cute and it was distracting to the boys. I was not dressed inappropriately for school, but I was still told to alter myself to make it easier for the boys. Prior to High School I was fairly confident, enjoyed life, and enjoyed being successful. During high school, I became increasingly self-deprecating and apologetic for my presence. It seemed that because I was attractive, being confident and outgoing drew unwanted sexual attention from boys and harsh judgment from many girls. My freshman year, I also struggled with a life threatening eating disorder that was triggered by this need to reduce my own power. Our society diminishes women’s power by focusing on our appearance. It distracts women from growing and taking risks when they are constantly self-conscious about attaining an impossible and unhealthy ideal. Women who don’t fit the ideal are made to feel inadequate, women who are considered attractive are assigned a highly sexualized unhealthy kind of “power”, and so many women feel uncomfortable in their bodies. I often wonder what kind of revolution could happen if women were not worrying about their image.