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It's a debate that has lingered for more than six years in Oregon, and the issue is back on the table in the Oregon legislature: Should illegal immigrants who graduate from Oregon high schools be allowed to pay the in-state tuition rate in college? Presently, illegal immigrants in Oregon who are accepted to Oregon public colleges must pay the out-of-state tuition rate, which is as high as $19,900 at some schools — far greater than the roughly $6,000 that in-state students pay.
Illegal immigrants are also unable to receive financial aid or federal loans, and the expense makes going to college virtually impossible.
Like Oregon, the country is split on this issue. Ten states have already passed legislation allowing illegal immigrants in-state status, while four others have explicitly banned illegal immigrants from paying the in-state rate. With the DREAM Act, the U.S. Congress is also considering legislation that would provide a path to citizenship and give states more leeway to determine residency for undocumented students
Oregon's House Bill 2939 would allow undocumented students who graduate from high schools and are accepted to Oregon's public colleges to pay the much cheaper in-state tuition rate. Proponents say it's the best way to create productive members of society. Otherwise, the argument goes, these students are more likely to become dependent on the state for other programs.
But opponents say that's unfair — not to mention illegal — and point to a similar 2001 California law that was recently ruled in violation of the 1996 federal Illegal Immigration Reform and Responsibility Act.
What do you think? Is it unfair to allow illegal immigrants — many of whom were brought to the U.S. when they were children — to pay in-state tuition rates? If you're in this country illegally and finishing high school, would the difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition mean the difference between attending or not attending college? What opportunities would you have with a college diploma, but no legal residency? What would you do if college weren't an option?
If you a are legal resident studying in an Oregon university, how would this bill affect you?
Tagged as: college · education · high school · immigration · latino
Photo credit: Captain Skyhawk / Flickr / Creative Commons
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aplambeck - not so - if you are BORN in Oregon, you are a US citizen. If you then live in Oregon - you can get in-state tuition. HB2939 allows illegal - undocumented aliens (born in other countries), who attend Oregon HS for a period of time - to attend Oregon universities at in-state tuition rates.
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Residency status is based off of parents' status. So it is indeed possible to be born in Oregon and still face paying out of state tuition. HB2939 could remedy that. I am in full support.
Adela Aguilar
Western Oregon University
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apambeck, you are wrong.
Anyone born in the U.S. is automatically a citizen under the present interpretation of the Constitution.
So if a person born in Oregon continues to live in Oregon thus meeting the residency and scholastic requirements of state colleges, that person can attend Oregon public colleges and receive instate tuition. That person does not need HB 2939.
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I pay $6000 a quarter in out-of-state tuition & I am a U.S. citizen - one of those lucky folks who didn't get married or pregnant & worked when I was under 24 so I didn't qualify for financial aid. Now I'm in my late 20's & finally able to take out the $50,000 in loans I need to go to school. It isn't just immigrants that are being priced out of education - it's actual tax-paying Americans (which is how these state colleges are funded).
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The story I read about this the other day said students are required by the legislation to be working towards legal residency. So it seems like any arguments about this being illegal or students still not being able to work legally after college is moot. They've already lived here so long and graduated from high school and are poised to continue succeeding and becoming great assets to our state. Seems like it would be a wasted investment if we didn't make sure Oregon high school grads are allowed to pay in-state tuition since they are Oregonians.
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"required by the legislation to be working towards legal residency." So this makes it all right to be an illegal alien and get instate tuition? Actually, the bill says:
"(d) Plans, as determined by the board by rule, to become a citizen or a lawful permanent resident of the United States."
The student is only asked to PLAN to become a citizen. This could not be enforced and is practically meaningless. This is an attempt at some kind of amnesty, which can't be granted by a state government.
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I'll echo gbrist's statement about becoming assets to our state. Move beyond the discussion of status particularly, as gbrist points out, working toward status (which is a process that can average as high as ten years to complete) is a required part of the bill. We have people living here, grew up here, went to and graduated from Oregon high schools. Why would it make any sense NOT to make sure they have the tools necessary to become contributing, productive members of our society? It doesn't make any sense.
I have full faith that the vast majority of Oregonians, as well as the legislature, have the intelligence and common sense to see past scare tactics and to see the larger good resulting from the passage of HB 2939.
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oregonian37 apparently favors open borders. Just let anybody enter and settle in this country anytime. We already have twice the population that is environmentally sustainable, but no matter, let the world move on in.
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subscriber43 wrote:
"oregonian37 apparently favors open borders. Just let anybody enter and settle in this country anytime. We already have twice the population that is environmentally sustainable, but no matter, let the world move on in."
Good on you. The most basic aspects of population, growth, sustainability are lost on the open border adherents. I'd be willing to bet, most posters here don't even know the most basic facets of the US population at the present time - such as:
Total Number: ?
Growth Rate: ?
Proportion of Pop. Growth due to Immigration: ?
When is enough, actually enough?
Arguing for open borders (indirectly, the mass movement or migration into the US) is an invitation for a rapidly increasing population. This population increase 'bucks' the trends in other Western/developed nations and increasingly favors the immigration of low-skilled persons that have relatively little to offer an advanced economy which thirts for highly trained/skilled individuals. So, let me leave this point with a question for the other side:
1. How many of the remaining 6.3 billion persons can the US 'welcome' - legally, illegally, or <whatever>?
2. Which of those persons should get preference, and why?
3. Which of the environmental problems that face us, are ameliorated by 'just adding more people'?
4. With respect to illegal immigration, why do we continue to place effective barriers to persons from regions of the world that are NOT Mexico/Central/South America? (the overwhelming proportion of illegal immigrants hail from Mexico and Central America) - why not let in people from Asia, Africa, the Middle East - in addition to Mexico/Central America - in equal proportions?
If people have doors to their houses, and fences around their yards, why do borders around a nation seem so antithetical?
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Let's get something straight here: these are not illegal immigrants. Any human born in America is a citizen of America, no matter what the status of their parents. Tuition equity is for Oregon citizens who are restricted by the complication of their parents' status. These students have already been given federally mandated k-12 education by Oregon, and are not given the chance to repay that investment by gaining a college degree. More students in Oregon colleges means cheaper tuition rates and fees, and allow for a more diverse ciriculum. There are no costs to this bill, and it can only help Oregon.
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"More students in Oregon colleges means cheaper tuition rates and fees" ??? What kind of logic is that? Enrollments have been increasing and I'm unaware that tuition has decreased anytime recently. So your "cheaper tuition" is just pie in the sky.
And how does it help Oregon to broadcast that we aid and assist illegal immigrants, thus encouraging more to come.
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If these "victims" are so determined to get their education they should be able to find a way to pay for it. I pay $6000 a quarter & have huge student loans, why should they have to do any less?
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'More students in Oregon colleges means cheaper tuition rates and fees" ??? What kind of logic is that? Enrollments have been increasing and I'm unaware that tuition has decreased anytime recently. So your "cheaper tuition" is just pie in the sky'
Agree. And...
If one could take that faulted logic and extrapolate to larger schools, then the schools with the largest enrollment *should have* the least expensive tuition... but, once again, reality intercedes as we all know that is not the case (those might have lower tuition rates sometimes, but actual tuition rates are fixed by governing bodies and only factor in things such as expected tuition proceeds in upcoming years, etc. In short, there may be some relation, but it is not a 1:1 correspondence).
The problem with the proposed economics by JSnake is that tuition proceeds only represent a portion of the total package of funding needed to put a person through school in a given year. If universities had to sustain themselves on tuition proceeds alone, most would close their doors in short order.
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Some estimate that there are more than 20 million people in this country without documentation. We should be making laws that realize the enormousness of deportation or other expulsive or restrictive solutions. Even Sysiphus would throw up his hands.
This law is the perfect baby step that a state can take in finding a productive solution to this immigrant puzzle.
Morally this is fine, pragmatically this is a no-brainer: let's pass it.
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"theledge" gives the standard excuse for not enforcing immigration laws. Nobody is suggesting we round up all illegals in one fell swoop and pack them into buses or planes and send them away tomorrow. There is an easy, effective way to do it over a reasonable period of time: the E-Verify program of the DHS enables employers to check the employment eligibility of new hires quickly and at no charge. Make use of E-Verify mandatory for all employers, and the drying up of job opportunities would cause voluntary deportation of most illegal limmigrants.
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Agreed. People shouldn't benefit from programs funded by tax-payers if they are not paying taxes. Either get your citizenship or pay out-of-state tuition, otherwise we're paying for people to become educated that can not contribute back into the system because they can't be legally employed.
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H.B. 2939 will ensure that all Oregon high school graduates are treated fairly. By pricing these students out of receiving higher education we are wasting the investment made during their time in K-12. Passing TE would be a victory for social justice, a smart investment in the economy, and good for the OUS system.
I am an out of state student and so I understand the costs associated with that. I am fortunate enough to have access to loans and other support, but for many talented Oregonians that burden is too much. These students have the right to an affordable education and the opportunity for a better life.
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HB 2939 does not ensure that all Oregon high school graduates are treated fairly. Granting illegal aliens instate tution rates makes going to college easier for them, and they will be taking spaces and using public funds that otherwise would support higher education for citizens. When decisions are made on who is to be admitted, illegal aliens and citizens will be in competition, and that in itself is extremely unfair to the citizens. When decisions are made on who gets scholarships, illegal aliens and citizens will be in competition with each other, and that also is extremely unfair to citizens.
Contrary to what Wiewel said about maybe 20 or 30 illegal aliens taking advantage of instate tuition, NOBODY knows how many illegal aliens are here and might get the lower rates. And this law would go on the books permanently; what about the future number of illegal aliens?
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Illegal immigrants would compete with Americans for admission to state colleges that are funded by taxes that they and their families did not contribute to. How does this make sense??
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This comment has been removed by the TOL staff.
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I fully support House Bill 2939. Tuition Equity would essentially treat all Oregon high school graduates the same and give all qualified students an opportunity to more affordable education. Additionally, this would profit Oregon as a whole. Oregon students who would benefit from this would be able to give back to their community through service, work, knowledge, and thus help create a more thriving and economic prosperous community. HB 2939 is about dismantling the barriers to education which have historically been exclusive and making the educational system one that is open and accessible for all.
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Education is a right. And right now it is possible to be born in Oregon, educated in Oregon, be an Oregon high school graduate, and still be required to pay out-of-state tuition because of your documentation status, or that of your parents. HB 2939 will fix this. It is time to give students who are qualified, hard working, and willing the chance to receive an affordable post-secondary education.
Christian Rogers
Vice President of the Associated Students of Western Oregon University.
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HB 2939 is not a free pass to college. It just gives high school students who have attended for at least 3 years and graduated from an Oregon high school the chance to pay in-state tuition just like the rest of their peers. They must also have been accepted into an Oregon University System institution. This means that only qualifed students will benefit. These students will still face many more financial challeges during college, HB 2939 only grants residency status and they will still not be eligible to recieve any state or federal financial aid. HB 2939 creates an equitable tuition policy for all Oregon students.
Andrew Rohner
Director of State and Federal Affairs of the Associated Students of Western Oregon University
Board of Directors, Executive Member-at-Large, Oregon Students Association
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Uh, do you mean "receive"?
PhredE
BSc, MSc, etc.
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I think that it is important to not think of this as an issue of immigration but rather access to education. These students have done everything that is asked of them and are trying to continue that process. It's the goal of the American dream that a person is able to achieve whatever their hearts desire. Without this piece of legislation we would be taking away the pursuit of that dream for those individuals. We need to pass this piece of legislation because it's the right thing to do. Ensuring that the dream our country is founded upon is accessible to all those who are try to reach it. We should not limit the dream of the children for actions that they are not responsible for. Let us together ensure access to the American Dream for all those who wish to see for we are a nation of immigrants. We must realize that this is an issue of education we can not move our soceity forward withouth equal access to education. As an oregonian and student I fully support House Bill 2939.
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For a school that is working to increase their enrollment, Tuition Equity can only be a positive move. Tuition Equity will help Oregon universities by increasing opportunities for Oregon high school graduates so they may access higher education.
Tuition Equity will benefit the Oregon University System by increasing access to higher education for qualified Oregon high school graduates who would otherwise be unable to attend public schools of higher education in Oregon. Tuition Equity will not cause OUS to lose out of state tuition; it will instead allow OUS to gain in-state tuition revenue.
After investing in Oregon's youth through K-12 education funding, pricing students out of higher education opportunities in Oregon is a waste of our initial investment as well as a waste of the opportunity to educate more bright minds and generate a stronger workforce.
It's the right time to pass HB 2939!!!
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As a university student, I support Oregon's House Bill 2939. Without access to higher education, I don't know where I'd be - nowhere good, I'm sure. Undocumented students already face enough difficulties - if they graduated from Oregon high schools, why punish them for seeking higher education, especially if they are accepted? More students will be able to attend an Oregon university if they are allowed in-state tuition; otherwise, these students may not be able to go at all due to the steep cost of out-of-state tuition. Education is the key to moving our nation forward, economically and socially. Encouraging Oregon high school graduates to attend college, regardless of their documentation status, is good for our economy and the Oregon university system. Additionally, the bill will increase the diversity in our schools, while empowering a traditionally underrepresented group.
Discriminating against undocumented high school graduates, many of whom have lived here since early childhood and have long suffered from America's obsession with identification, is unjust. Supporting HB 2939 and tuition equity is the right thing to do.
PJ Houser
Senator, Associated Students of Portland State University
Coordinator, Portland State Environmental Club -
Hmmm... lets punish children for the actions of their parents. Because a kid's parents moved here under the radar lets make it more difficult for that kid to go to college and make something of his/herself.
Does this sound just plain wrong to anyone else?
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You dont understand the word illegal?
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No. That is primarily a problem the child's parent must assume responsibility for.
They CHOSE to move here despite the rules and regs, and further, they KNEW they weren't supposed to do so in that manner.
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As an Oregonian, I fully support House Bill 2939, Tuition Equity. I fully believe that educating more Oregonians at the college level will help get Oregon back on track. Tuition Equity will help open the doors that have been closed on many students. It does this by allowing qualified and talented students the opportunity to obtain an affordable college degree and give back to our state. Typically, college graduates have higher earning capabilities to contribute more to Oregon’s tax structure.
Supporting House Bill 2939 is the right thing to do to get Oregon back on track.
Erica Moreno~Western Oregon University
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House Bill 2939 is essential to the future of Oregon and the future of our great nation. HB 2939 grants the opportunity to individuals who have graduated from an Oregon high school after three years of attendance to go on to college, which they have earned and deserve. They cannot qualify for any sort of federal or state government authorized financial aid. They simply earn the, if you will, privilege of paying in-state tuition.
They will very likely stay in Oregon, ultimately benefitting the state and the general Oregon population. It is only to the advantage of our state to further the ability of those who reside here to receive the education that they have worked so hard to achieve and deserve.
I personally support tuition equity because on a human to human level, it is simply the most just and appropriate term the state need agree to. As well as in these difficult times we should evaluate the importance of educating all individuals who call Oregon home. Not just the lucky few such as myself.
Maxwell Beach
President of the Associated Students of Western Oregon University
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HB2939, Tuition Equity, is the RIGHT bill at the RIGHT time. I say this because this bill is an opportunity to educate more Oregonians and make Oregon a stronger, more productive state.
As federal law requires, Oregon invests in a K-12 education for all Oregon students regardless of documentation status. We then shut the door on many students by charging out-of-state tuition that many Oregonians can’t afford. Our investment is wasted if talented students don’t have the opportunity to obtain an affordable college degree and give back to our state. Why are we wasting our initial investment?
HB2939 means that if a student has gone to an Oregon high school for at least 3 years, graduated from an Oregon high school, been admitted to an Oregon University System institution and are working towards residency then the students receives in-state tuition, regardless of documentation status.
Tuition Equity is NOT a free pass, the bill does NOT give students priority, it does NOT change admission requirements and it does NOT grant state or federal financial aid. It simply creates a truly equitable tuition policy for ALL Oregon students. Since students affected by this aren’t going to school now because it’s too expensive. We are NOT losing out-of-state tuition; we are GAINING in-state tuition.
My dad always says; if someone is willing to put in the time and effort to better themselves, they should have the opportunity to do so. Please support HB2939 and provide the opportunity to these hardworking students!
Adela Aguilar
Oregon Students of Color Coalition Co-Chair
Western Oregon University
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House Bill 2939 is a chance to give Oregon student’s equal opportunities. This bill would allow for Oregon students to go to an institution of higher education for the same price as the rest of their Oregon classmates. These students have been treated as residents of Oregon while they have completed high school, but as they grow and try to become productive citizens they are being challenged. We need to encourage the growth of post-secondary education in Oregon instead of making the dream of college unreachable. As a result to keeping our Oregon students from in-state tuition we are doing an injustice to them, and to our state.
I strongly approve of House Bill 2939.
Amanda Sheelar
Campus Sustainability and Outreach Coordinator
Western Oregon University
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Very few low-income and middle-income Oregonians can afford out of state tuition @ a four-year university. Many of these students do not continue onto higher education because of the high cost. HB 2939 will not weaken the Oregon University system. Inversely, HB2939 will strengthen Oregon higher education by increasing freshman participation rates as well as increasing tuition paid to the system. By creating an equitable tuition policy you are NOT losing out-of-state tuition you are GAINING in-state tuition. Please support HB2939.
Christian Rogers
Vice President of the Associated Students of Western Oregon University.
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Well I'm not a student but I support doing this too. Glad to see the young people leading the way on an important issue. This just seems like a good thing to do for the state and a good thing to do for children who are undocumented that didn't make the decision to come here in the first place.
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With this crazy economy it seems like it's only fair that we encourage as many people to go to college as we can regardless if they're illegal or not. It seems like there's a criteria in place for who gets to pay instate vs. out of state tuition so there'd be room for everyone who qualifies. As a current graduate the economic crisis is scary and we should make sure that everyone is educated and ready to turn Oregon around. I fully support this legislation and plan to call my representative and let him know to vote yes.
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undocumented = illegal = pays for out of state tution because they are not state residents this bill is rediclous. The undocumented people should be deported the minute they sign up for school. The simple fact of the matter is they are criminals and i don't want to go to school with criminals
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AMEN BROTHER!!!
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HB 2939 is ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS - NOT THOSE BORN IN OREGON:
"an institution of higher education listed in ORS 352.002 shall consider a student who is not a citizen or a lawful permanent resident of the United States to be a resident of this state if the student:"
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My wife and I are Oregon residents for over 18 years. We have no children of our own but have paid a great deal of tax money to the state over that time. We have a niece from Nevada who wants to go to OSU in the fall. Does this mean she will pay more money to go to school than a person that is not even a US citizen?
As someone who got the benefits of a state supported university I support public education 100% , but this bill is wrong.
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Because that student will have grown up in Oregon, and will therefore be going to an "in-state" school.
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Your student can apply for the Western Undergraduate Exchange (WUE) and pay just a fraction more than in-state tuition to any of the member institutions. And this would be the rate for your niece to attend an out-of-state institution. Not only does your niece have the opportunity to attend a school in Nevada for in-state rates, but also attend a huge number of schools from western states for little more. These students have lived in Oregon, graduated here, are working on their residency and have already been accepted. Why should price be the barrier?
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I appreciate the student interest and advocacy - but they should read the bill. This is not about the kid that was born in Oregon, whose parents are undocumented. This is about the kid who was born somewhere else and goes to HS in Oregon. These sorts of programs could create "University Tourism" where people on tourist visas come to visit family in Oregon and stay with that family through high school. They could get discounted tuition (don't think it could happen? Travel outside the US sometime) and would then return home with a US degree.
Also - don't be confused by this issue of being a "productive member of Oregon society." If you can't work in the US because your an illegal - what difference does it make if you're an illegal with an Oregon University degree?
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I would suggest that you go through and read the bill. Students are not only showing interest and advocating this bill, we are the requesters of HB2939.
This bill affects both groups of students you mentioned in your comment. This is because a students residency status is based on their parents' residency status.
In terms of not being confused by the issue, we're not. One of the requirements is that a student must be working towards their residency so that they may CONTINUE to be productive members of society upon receiving their degree. This is truly a step in the right direction to getting Oregon back on track.
Adela Aguilar
Western Oregon University
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At a time when Oregon and the whole nation is eschewing divisive politics to dig ourselves out of this economic hole and move forward towards a successful future, why not make education accessible to all Oregon students? This legislation is common sense. Give all Oregon kids the chance to get educated and fill the jobs that will jumpstart Oregon's economy. It's best for all of us.
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EDUCATE OUR CITIZENS NOT GIVE ILLEGAL ALIENS THE ACCESS TO OUR INSTITUTIONS >. THEY SIMPLY DONT DESERVE IT >. THEY CAN GO TO COLLEGE IN MEXICO
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Jennifer should be required to go pick up her parents and be deported immeadiately she is illegal
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Why are we considering giving away a $13,000/yr per student benefit when all our major universities are running budget deficits?
(In fact, the State Board of Higher Education recently announced it is considering raising tuition for 'normal' [in state] students by $6,000 per year)
The sheer economics don't support this idea at this time.
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Undocumented students don't go to college. Not losing out-of-state tuition, but gaining in-state tuition from students affected by this bill.
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JENNIFER >. JUST DONT HAVE AN ANCHOR BABY BEFORE U GET DEPORTED >> CAUSE THEN U WILL END UP JUST GETTING WELFARE AND BE A BURDEN ON SOCIETY LIKE MANY OF YOUR ILLEGAL ALIEN PEERS
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If your family came here illegally, sorry about your luck. My husband and I have good friends that are hispanic, and in order to live here they went the correct legal route and got green cards and are now american citizens. They are illegal, what part of that dont they understand...they had the chance to do the right thing and become legal, but chose not too. Not our problem. The hispanics already clog up our welfare system, what makes them think they should get MORE special treatment. Too bad.
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if jens parents had come here legally she would not have to have been so sad about not being able to afford the schools. Don't blame americans blame the person who brought you here ilegally
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AMEN BROTHER!!!
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Right, where is the parent's culpability in all this?
THEY should be looked to FIRST for Jennifer's resolution to her problem.
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The United States, and the State of Oregon were built on the brains and backs of immigrants both "Legal" and illegal. We are incredibly fortunate that there are people who are willing to come here and add their intense labor and brains. Children who have been educated in Oregon should be able to do In-State tuition. They will add years of taxes and effort to this country.
The second thing is that these young people should have a straight line "check the box" way of becoming Legal Residents of the United States. They should become US Citizens. They have already done things to be proud of in simply doing well enough to gain access to our colleges.
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they should go back to mexico and help improve the society there >.that would be a selfless and humanitarian way to serve the world
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Students are well aware that this bill applies to students not necessarily born here. As for tourist visas, that seems like a particularly far-fetched outcome considering the economic limitations faced by people traveling to this country. And once again, this bill requires working toward residency, which negates the unfounded "illegal" college graduate fear and claim. By graduation or shortly thereafter, citizenship would no longer be an issue.
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"And once again, this bill requires working toward residency, which negates the unfounded "illegal" college graduate fear and claim."
And that will be proved HOW exactly?
Who will verify this? What documentation will be needed?
Who will certify this event?
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I know that the private colleges in the NW are alwasy desperate to build ethnic diversity in their student bodies. For someone like Jennifer, I'd think Whitman, Reed and Willamette would be falling over themselves to offer her a full ride. Are they being prevented because some of the aid they'd use in their package requires legal status?
I support the bill - we're talking about a tiny number of students (that will hopefully grow), who are likely to be very valuable to our state and country.
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this bill will have unforseen consequences >. lets not make excuses for people who have broken our laws>.why educate them so they can take jobs from american citizens >. let em go to college in mexico
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Kids of undocumented immigrant families who are so successful are rare. The guest's achievement is admirable, and she deserves an opportunity to be educated as other Oregonians are. I have no doubt that that kind of investment will help the state.
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MOST KIDS OF ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE DOPE DEALING GANG MEMBERS >>GOOD RIDDANCE TO BAD RUBISH
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Adela - Clearly, this is a bill that was written by someone who doesn't understand US immigration law. There's no way to "work towards citizenship" (at least today).
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Why can't Jennifer become a citizen and resident? What about after college? Is she allowed to work here?
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THIS BILL IS LEGAL. Legislative Counsel of the State of Oregon has said so.
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Legislative Counsel of Oregon <> SCOTUS (Sup. Court of the US)
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That is not correct. Not to mention ten other states have implemented similar policies.
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Does Jennifer have a path to citizenship? How is she going to get a job if she is undocumented? All advanced employment requires a SS number and valid ID. from Kathryn in Longview
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Yep, she can't legally work in the US anyway - given all current factors.
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Why not put in a performance based hurdle to allow the instate tuition for the undocumented students? We DO want to keep the best and brightest. The young lady known as "Jennifer" on this show is clearly someone who can and should be allowed to contribute further to society. Making the instate tuition only available to those who score say in the top 25% of the SAT (or pick your metric) and graduate from high school in the top 25% of their class (again, pick your metric - these are just examples) are those who would seem most deserving. But don't make it a blanket offer to any undocumented student - instead, give them an incentive to work harder in high school.
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whats the next proposal >> let the litttle illegal alien kids who get put in prison a special get out jail free card???
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There is a merit or performance based hurdle. The President of PSU explained that. Its called the ADMISSIONS PROCESS. All students still have to be accepted based on the exact same admissions proccess.
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Response to gbrist635 - I'd be much more supportive of this bill if there was a HIGHER hurdle for the undocumenteds than the OUS existing admissions process. I would like to see stronger incentives for undocumented children to PROVE through their hard work and intelligence that they are the cream of the crop. As Dr Wiewel (President of PSU) said, all you need is a 3.0 GPA to get admitted. That is fine for US citizens and non-citizens who are here legally. But not for those who are not living here legally. I want a higher hurdle to make sure those such as Jennifer who really are intelligent and willing to bust their behinds to succeed have an opportunity to get an education and stay here - these are exactly the kind of knowledge workers we need as a society to succeed in the globalized economy of the 21st century. But for those who are not smart enough or willing to work hard, they do not deserve the same educational privileges of citizens and legal status aliens. They already have the right to get a high school education - let them earn the privilege of a tax-payer subsidized higher education by dint of their hard work.
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The bill is absolutely ridiculous. It gives illegal aliens preference over US citizens of other states. It cheapens citizenship to the point of conferring privileges to anyone who happens to be physically present in the state, regardless of legality. It would create a poweful magnet for more illegal immigrants that add to unemployment and urban sprawl problems in the state. The"innocent children" argument is unconvincing. Instead of punishing children for the crimes of their parents, the bill would reward children for the crimes of their parents.
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We are not punishing the children for the actions of their parents. If the children are undocumented, they are illegal. Get your citizenship and the problem goes away. There is no need for any new laws.
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Another great discussion that Emily should be commended for. I am all for raising the standards of all students on this planet regardless of nationality and laws. It’s about improving the community worldwide.
In the revealing dire economic times we now live in, do young students understand that many teachers, lecturers like myself operate on no funds, honorariums or stipends while further unemployed? Where will these students find the invaluable teachers and lecturers as they are laid off without funds to operate? I performed a stunning lecture on my awarded astronomy art yesterday which enlightened the students, some of them also art students at the college I attended as an art major 37 years ago with tuition I earned myself, working after high school.
I am dismayed when I hear of many local born and raised high school students drop out and decide not to pursue college. Everything must be done to encourage them to return to school. House Bill 2939 is probably a step in the right direction but if it does not fund the people who do the teaching; (under)employed teachers or demanded lecturers like myself, we have lost the bigger picture again. Mark Seibold, Artist-Astronomer
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This is a thorny issue; on the one hand, every person should be allowed (and encouraged) to grow to their full potential and, personally, I would advocate ANY measure that acheives this end.
On the other hand, every nation has both the right and the responsibility to control immigration and to apply what it considers to be appropriate criteria to that process.
On the one hand, Jennifer is an exemplary student and, apparently, a fine person and would be an excellent addition to our legal population.
On the other hand, she is illegal and so are her parents. Her parents, unfortunately, have chosen to commit the crime of coming here without fulfilling the legal requirements of immigration. It is they, not us, who have placed her in this position.
On the one hand, no one would want to deny a person the opportunity to be an American citizen; on the other hand, no one would want to reward those who commit crimes at the expense of those who have legally applied for citizenship in other countries (sometimes at the risk of life and limb) and are patiently waiting for their chance.
On the one hand, having heard her, I would very much like to see her as an American citizen (and I hope that happens). On the other hand, I recognize the fundamental unfairness of the position that her parents' action has placed us all in.
What is really fair, here?
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My cousins had to pay thousands of dollars and jump through all the INS hoops to come over as legal refugees of war to the US. While the immigration system may be inefficient, it is something all immigrants should have to go through equally. I don't understand why this girl's parents were not able or willing to get that process going after 18 years of being in this state?
There are programs in Oregon that give tuition help to international students, but you have to make sacrifices-- one of my cousins went to Eastern Oregon University (not his first choice) and became a nurse because that was the program that gave him the best tuition. He then worked in Boise for years to earn his green card from the hospital he was working at. There are ways that she could get ahead and get an education without just handing the priviledge handed to her.
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"I don't understand why this girl's parents were not able or willing to get that process going after 18 years of being in this state?"
Yep, and...
Had our immigration laws been enforced robustly in the past, we'd never even be having this conversation - the problem would be moot.
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jennifer u and your illegal alien parents need to go back to mexico and apply for a visa>> or stay there and improve your homeland
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I'd like to know where Jim Ludwick is getting this number ($6000) for tuition increases, I am sure this is why President Wiewel is shaking his head.
Also, I think folks are not realizing that in fact this bill is legal and the legislative counsel has written an opinion stating just that. Nobody is giving a discount to folks, just allowing those we have already invested in throughout their K-12 education, to have the same access as their peers.
Finally, the woman who called in Vancouver needs to realize that while taxes were paid in Oregon, Oregon did not invest in her son during his K-12 education, and he did not attend an Oregon highschool for 3 years, as this bill requires.
There is a lot of confusion out there on this one...
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This is the article Jim Ludwick just mentioned:
http://www.oregonlive.com/education/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1239074710274070.xml&coll=7
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I work as an immigration attorney in Clackamas County, and can say I see far too many clients in "Jennifer's" situation.
Although thisproposed law would give Oregon students equal access to education as residents, they will still need more federal legislation to be able to enter the work force. The Dream Act that was reintroduced this month in both houses of Congress would give these students a path to Citizenship. After all, what good is an education, if you do not have authorization to work once you leave school.
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jennifer the fact is you are an illegal alien > u are a citizen of mexico and that is where u should return and then apply for a visa through the proper procedures>>>have a nice trip >. send me a post card
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Why assume that because you have avoided the law for years
that it should never apply?
"Jennifer" has been rewarded for her parents violation.
There is a process for people to apply to become citizens.
Those who skirt the law should NOT be rewarded.
We also have procedures for changing federal laws: they are not laws of physics.
We could, collectively, change the federal laws in one of several ways:
-legally throw open the borders
-declare yet another amnesty to those who have violated the laws
-enforce the current allocations
-repeal the 14th amendment such that a baby born here assumes the citizenship of it's parents.
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lets enforce the law not reward people for breaking the law>>. obviously mexico could use some its its well educated citizens back>> dont let the door hit ya in the azz
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"most illegal immigrants possess stolen documents or got them off the street in Woodburn." Talk about intellectually dishonest. I agree most "illegal immigrants" have documentation. They have id's or drivers licenses issued by the State of Oregon which had very relaxed laws up until last year.
To quote John Stewart "illegal immigration, that's so 2006."
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CHIP EM AND SHIP EM BACK TO MEXICO>>. CONFISCATE ALL THEIR ASSETS TOO
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The bottom line of this argument is simple. We are talking about a kid who was brought here with no choice, they went to school like they were told, they succeeded and now they are told they can't go to college.
Let's face the fact. These students, if better educated, will work towards citizenship and work with their parents to gain citizenship. We are denying some of our best students the opportunity to add to economy and workforce.
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let em go to college in mexico >. adios
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They are not being told they can't go to college; they simply have to pay more than those who are here legally and who haven't sent billions of dollars back to their home country!
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Gosh forbid someone gets an education at a reduced rate! They really can't win can they? We hear they are slackers, leeches and criminals. But, when they try to get educated, so many make it harder.
Oh, yes, it is the principle! Right? Well, their illegal so.... . Baby out with the bath water. What principle, the rule of law? Are the opponents always such advocates for hard line rule following? Or they just advocate on principle, when it suits their middle class bigotry. Whatever way you look at it, they want a better life. If we have an educated population it helps us all.
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"f we have an educated population it helps us all. "
Not if it requires breaking the law to do so.
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PhredE,
They've already broken the law haven't they? So considering they are already here, do we prefer they go uneducated so they can truly become the stereotype so many want them to be? Or would we rather they are educated and productive members of society? Wouldn't it cost less in the long run?
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1. Re: "So considering they are already here, do we prefer they go uneducated so they can truly..."
It is not my problem. The parents CHOSE to put their kids in this predicament - not I.
2. Also, Re: "hey've already broken the law haven't they..."
So, anyone can pick and choose which laws they want to obey? So I only have to adhere to the ones I find convenient, or agree with? How does that work??? Because there's a plethora of things I could do to get rich, etc and would love to circumvent all those pesky things that might get in my way of doing so... but, alas, I'm an honest, law-abiding guy and would never do such thing anyway...
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Is the guy with the Mexican accent here legally?
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Maybe you're talking about Wim Wievel, the president of PSU? If so, you heard a Dutch accent. He IS legal, and has been in the states for more than three decades.
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If we are really so worried about punishing children for the actions of their parents, then the entire in-state vs. out-of-state tuition cost structure should be brought into question. Citizen students living in other states do not have a choice about where they are born, raised, or attend high school. Those students are still punished with out-of-state tuition if they choose to attend Oregon schools. Are we just assuming that those students always come from wealthy families and don’t find the out-of-state tuition costs to be problematic? I know first hand that this is not the case.
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Racism rears its ugly head. Yet again. I am a man of color, hold a post-graduate professional degree, have lived in PDX for over 20 years, and have encountered a vast undercurrent of racism and white privilege here in "liberal" PDX.
PDX is one of the "whitest" cities in the US, per the last census analysis. HB 2939 is one step towards addressing the social injustice of institutionalized racism and white privilege in Oregon.
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GET OVER URSELF >. U WOULDNT BE WHERE U ARE WITH OUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION
I HAVE WITNESSED MORE BLANTANT RACISM FROM THE BLACK AND HISPANIC COMMUNITIES >. UR NOT WITHOUT SIN SO STOP THROWING STONES
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It's a slippery slope. Change the immigration laws first, then address TE. It's like someone breaking into your house, stealing from your family but as long as they wait three years before selling the stolen goods it is OK, cause they have already had them for three years and you have been without it for three years. It's the law. Deciding which laws apply and which do not leads to a potentially dangerous slippery slope.
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The question I have not yet heard answered concerns competition for the opportunity to be educated at an Oregon University. Will giving undocumented students in state tuition make it harder for a legal oregonian to obtain an education or a spot at the university?
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THERE IS ONLY A CERTAIN AMOUT OF SPACE >. OBVIOUSLY A LEGAL CITIZEN WILL BE REPLACED BY AN ILLEGAL ALIEN >> IS THAT FAIR??
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In reference to one of the on-air comments:
Be sure and tell all of those industries and businesses that are now requiring a college education for entry-level jobs that education is a "privilege" and that they had better plan on rolling back employment requirements so that the rest of the population can get a job, particularly the ones without access to that "privilege." -
Ludwick is deliberately misrepresenting this paragraph:
Average tuition for full-time undergraduates at the seven universities would go up to about $6,000 in two years, which doesn't include student fees that typically add another $1,300 to annual costs. That would generate about one-third of the $252 million needed to fill a 30 percent hole in the university system's $840 million budget.
Full link of the article he referenced is here: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/oregon_universities_plan_for_t.html
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GOOD POINT >. JENNIFER MEXICO NEEDS BRIGHT MOTIVATED YOUNG PEOPLE LIKE U >. U CAN DO ALOT OF GOOD FOR YOUR PEOPLE THERE
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I agree with your current guest about providing the needed education for all and not to take the tangent on immigration issues but when I am asked to lecture because my demanded world famous art is desired to be seen by students in order to inspire them and the institution says I'll have to provide the lecture for free as their funds have been cut (I provide it anyway as I know it is important for the students), as without this, many students will drop the needed and desired classes out of boredom. It is also ironic that I find the recently immigrated students to be the more attentive to my field of art and astronomy lectures.
Again another failure of the arts funding that was discussed recently in Portland as to what they will do with $20 million to fund the arts and sciences. There are many misappropriations of funding today. I commend the presidents efforts to offer higher Pell Grants, but instead we hear of trillions now in bailouts where education improvements for all should be tantamount first. Mark Seibold, Artist-Astronomer
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Has Jennifer checked on the costs of continuing her education in her country of citizenship? Would it actually be cheaper for her to attend school in her country which would then put her in a good position to apply for citizenship?
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The comment that passing this law would create an incentive for people in Mexico to illegally leave Mexico and move to Oregon presents our state with a false delusion of grandeur. People leave Mexico because they have been impoverished in large part by greedy practices of same financial institutions that got bailed out by our tax dollars through the TARP program. Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, et al should pay the cost, rather than their victims in both places.
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LET THESE WELL EDUCATED INTELLIGENT ILLEGAL ALIENS RETURN TO MEXICO AND IMPROVE THEIR HOMELAND
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Entering into the U.S. ilegally is a crime, and should be treated as such. But if we have statue of limitations for rape and other horendous crimes, there should be a statue of limitations of something like 10 years for illegally crossing the border, When an adult brings a minor across the border, the adult is committing the crime.
We should stop treating illegal immigrants for their lifetime.
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WRONG >. U DONT GET TO GET AWAY WITH A CRIME JUST CAUSE U DONT GET CAUGHT
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I have great respect for Mr. Wiewel and his vision for higher education. The only way in which we can continue to advance as a country is by education and that includes those that live in this country but maybe are not officially citizens. I know that we have many international students that attend our state universities every year. The question is, how can we find a compromise for these people that want to attend our universities but do not fall under the category of in state students or international students. Clearly there can be some way of including them.
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The 'short-sightness' of higher education as a privledge can be corrected by making K-12 education in Oregon a priority and NOT teaching to the lowest common denominator. By the way I paid for my undergrad degree by waiting table and working on campus, and enlisted in the military to pay for my paramedic training.
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Let's face it. This is not about illegal immigration. This is about people different from us.
What if all the illegal immigrants looked just like us, would we be just as angry? I doubt it. Let's call a spade a spade, this is veiled racism.
Get over yourselves people. We are all immigrants!!! If you are not a Native American than STFU!
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"Let's face it. This is not about illegal immigration. "
Absolutely it is. We'd never be having this conversation had our immigration laws been enforced over the last couple of decades.
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STUPID LIBERAL LOGIC
U SHUT ME UP >.THATS THE WAY OF TOTALITARIAN SOCIALISTS
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Its about numbers. We are not being flooded by masses of illegal immigrants from Canada, England, or Kenya. The masses of immigrants from India are not of my race, but are generally legal, so I have no argument to just send them back.
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We need to either embrace these “undocumented” people and give them all the benefits that every native Oregonian enjoys or deport them to their country of origin. Letting people have only a part of what their peers enjoy serves no ones best interest.
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I VOTE DEPORT
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A gentleman on the radio just said that it is a privilege not a right to attend higher education. I think this is lost on many people in the United States at this time. I grew up in Oregon and decided I wanted to attend college in Colorado. I applied, was accepted, moved to Colorado and attended college for 4 years paying out of state tuition. That was a privilege I had, though not one I did not work hard for. I worked 3 jobs at one time along with taking student loans that I will be paying for years to come because of my desire to attend school outside of Oregon. If an "undocumented" individual wishes to attend an institution of higher education they should have to pay international tuition. It is possible to finance this and if they wish to continue to stay here and work they should have to go through legal channels via work visas, as those of us who are U.S. citizens are required to do in order to work abroad in other countries.
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I'm a current college student at Portland State, born and raised in Portland. I couldn't agree more that HB 2939 (Tuition Equity!) is long overdue.
Our investment in our students is paramount in regrowing our economy. Other states have learned that tuition equity is best for their state and have seen increases in enrollment and tuition revenue, as well as diversifying campuses to better reflect their state populations.
We need to provide access to higher education for as many Oregonians as possible. A vast majority of new jobs in Oregon require a college degree, educating Oregonians means we can employ Oregonians.
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No position in this debate is fair, reasonable or just. Each solution has winners and losers. We are forced to make some kind of a decision because of political and economic decisions in the past that have left us in a very difficult situation. For example, having the ranks of workers swelled by people without citizen rights our economy has sustained growth without too much inflation. Now we are experiencing a downturn because the middle class can no longer afford the consumer products that fuel the economy. These are minimal factors in a complicated mess. Let's try to create win win situations the way Obama does.
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LETS JUST APOLOGIZE TO THE ILLEGAL ALIENS FOR ASKING THEM TO OBEY OUR LAWS >> THATS THE OBAMA WAY
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I am a high school teacher and I can tell you right now, cry now, or cry later. You can invest now in educating our worthy students or you can invest later in putting them in prisons, which costs much more. My children have no hope for their future. People like Jim make them feel like inferior human beings. Gangs give them a feeling of pride, confidence, and acceptance. Jim, invest in a good security system, because you are going to need it in YOUR perfect world!
So my kids shouldn't go to college because they can't get a legal job afterward anyway? WHY GO TO HIGH SCHOOL??? They can't get a legal job after that either! Again, back to thugging.
When I moved here to Oregon I had to become a resident by working here for two years so that I could qualify for in-state tuition, which I did. My kids have been working in Oregon since the age of 10. When can they get in-state tuition?
Pass the Dream Act NOW!
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send em back to mexico NOW!!!
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I was very disappointed that the moderator cut off Jim Ludwick at the end, yet allowed Wiewel to speak at length at the end. This was not fair; it was blatant favoritism toward Wiewel. Wiewel wants students in his college and doesn't care what their legal status is. How short-sighted. Immigration laws are there for a good purpose, to control entry of persons into this country. We cannot have open borders or we won't remain a nation. Control of borders is a fundamental necessity of nations. All illegal immigrants should be deported. The way to do this is by requiring all employers to use the E-Verify program of DHS, which would limit employment to citizens and authorized legal immigrants. This would over a period of time cause most illegal immigrants to leave the country.
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short-sighted? Your post is a great example of being both short-sighted and uneducated on HB2939.
Adela Aguilar
Western Oregon university
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It would probably take a face to face sit down to properly address all of the apparent lapses in your understanding of economics or this particular House Bill, 2939.
Let's do a brief response just for good measure.
First, we should acknowledge that higher enrollment at our institutions lowers the cost of attending for all students. Second, Wiewel is not just roaming for anyone that can be educated, but supporting students who have gone through the Oregon education system, have graduated from an Oregon HS, earned acceptance to an institution, and are working towards their residency.
Next, we're not discussing the purpose of immigration laws, or their perceived merits. Nothing was brought up concerning "open borders".
Finally, I will not even entertain the notion of our nation essentially in a bubble. Please wade out of the waters of ignorance.
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QUESTION: "What part of 'illegal' don't you understand?"
Let's pretend for a minute that those who pose that question want an answer.
This particular query has been posted thousands of times by way of telephone calls, e-mails and blog responses. It isn't really a question, of course, but a philosophical statement, a way of informing the person at whom it is aimed that there is no need to discuss illegal immigration with him because he obviously is an idiot.
Let's pretend for a minute that the questioners want an answer, however. Because there is one. In fact, there are several.
ANSWER No. 1: I don't understand the part that applies to a local woman who was brought to the U.S. from Mexico as a baby and recently graduated with honors from nursing school. A close friend of mine.
I don't understand laws that exclude such a person from working here when the need for qualified individuals like her is so high that health-care institutions are recruiting nurses from countries like Korea, the Philippines and (ironically) Mexico.
ANSWER No. 2: I don't understand the part that treats "illegal" as a state of being, like original sin. It is like declaring a child a criminal for having been pushed around a department store in a stroller by a shoplifting mother. Faridodin 'Fredi' Lajvardi, who currently mentors the Carl Hayden robotics team, put it this way, "Passing the DREAM Act or any other state level Tuition Equity Bill would help focus our resources on deporting those who are not contributing, law-abiding members of society. Preventing qualified, undocumented students from pursuing education is akin to throwing away our investment. We spend approximately $70,000 per student to educate them from kindergarten through high school."
ANSWER No. 3: I don't understand the part that refuses to differentiate between drug dealers or gang members and these high-achieving, motivated and (yes) patriotic kids. In the end, perhaps those who parrot that overused question about immigration should answer it themselves.
What part of "illegal" don't YOU understand? PASS TUITION EQUITY HOUSE BILL 2939 NOW!
Alejandro Gonzalez
Western Oregon University -
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Tuition Equity is not a free pass to college. It simply gives kids who have attended and graduated from Oregon high schools the chance to pay in-state tuition. All students have to be accepted to an Oregon University System institution. This means only qualified students benefit. We are creating a truly equitable tuition policy for all Oregon students. I am in full support of HB 2939.
Brenna Susee
Director of Public Relations
Associated Student of Western Oregon University
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The opposition to the bill cites "fairness" as a reason, comparing the interests of out-of-state students to those of in-state. This is not a "fair" comparison. Let's not forget that the residency requirements for any state services are designed to ensure that Oregonians, those that reside here and have paid into it's coffers and have been contributors to the state's well-being are given opportunities and benefits consistent with that status. The people in question meet all those requirements. Their status, or their parents status as legal or illegal is a very different question and should really have nothing to do with this issue. It is unfair to bring immigration status in argument against them. We are talking about residency benefits.
Those who want to mix the issue, who feign concern for illegal immigrant working conditions or the "brain drain" in Mexico, seem to be disengenous in their regard, since I don't see them advocating for workers rights or Mexico in general. But some, as evidenced by this comment chain, are just mean spirited and should concentrate on making at least as valuable a contribution to the state's well-being as those they would like to exclude.
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"Intellectual Dishonesty"
Referring to these children and adults as "undocumented" as opposed to Jim's preferred term "illegal" is no more intellectually dishonest than Jim's statement that allowing someone like Jennifer, who has lived here in Oregon all her life with the tiny exception of 7 weeks, to attend college on an in-state tuition would destroy the fabric of society and the rule of law. The "rule of law" argument is both absurd and disingenuous! Everyday laws are broken by U.S. citizens and yet society remains intact. Allowing a high-achieving, young person such as Jennifer to attend college, achieve her goals, and give back to society can only benefit the rest of us.
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As an adjunct professor at PSU I concur with the statements which the President of PSU made in today's program. Students in this situation are in a Catch 22 bind. The proposed law HB 2939 would remedy the discriminatory bias of the current law. The opposition to this law is simply stated an inherently anti-immigrant position which was in evidence on Wednesday's "Tea Bag Party" rally in Salem. Oregon businesses have recruited undocumented workers for decades, the children of those full-time year around workers should not be penalized. We are an immigrant society. How many people listening to your program have checked the status of their own family members many generations back to see if the original members of their family got in the USA legally?
Having spent most of my career in the private liberal arts college sector there is another alternative. Such students have the option to apply to one of the private independent colleges in Oregon. The private university system educates over 35,000 students and provides financial aid based on need and academic merit. Excellent students such as your guest student today would have a very good chance of admittance and getting significant financial aid which would enable her to attend college without having to rely on public funds (state or federal). It would be worth looking into. Each college has slightly different policies but such students might find that this is a better bargain for them.
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"How many people listening to your program have checked the status of their own family members many generations back to see if the original members of their family got in the USA legally?"
Mine did - confirmed.
Yours?
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As a PSU alum, I'd like to publicly thank Dr. Wiewel for representing the university so well, particularly in the face of the misrepresentations, bluster, and thinly-veiled racism demonstrated by Mr. Ludwick (and echoed in some of the comments above).
Citizenship is an accident of birth. Many of us who happened to be born in the US would fail the tests that come with the process of changing citizenship to become an American - which in itself is a sad commentary on the state of our educational system. Whatever one's views on illegal immigration, HB 2939, etc, it is important to have compassion for the young people caught in the midst of this political and social debate. Many of us have had struggles to contend with in our own lives - can we not respect the effort being made by others as they struggle with different circumstances?
Personally, I support HB 2939 and federal legislation that sensibly addresses ways to put illegal immigrants on a path to citizenship while also achieving a straightforward system for future migrants to legally enter the country.
I respect that others have different views, and am more than happy to discuss them in a civil, reasoned fashion - for instance, I appreciated the respectful way Mr. Friedman argued his case. But the prejudice, anger, and lack of respect on display whenever these issues are raised is disheartening and counterproductive.
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thank you for your contribution. appreciate the insight
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Federal law mandates that Oregon educates students in the K-12 system regardless of their documentation status, but then the state shuts its doors to colleges and universities by charging those students out-of-state tuition. This initial investment is wasted when students don't have the access they need to contribute to the state's economy with an affordable college education. I don't see why we continue to waste this investment.
HB2939 ensures that Oregonian students who have attended an Oregon high school for a minimum of three years, and have graduated from an Oregon high school, and accepted into an Oregon University System school, will be granted an equal chance at post-secondary education. It doesn't allow students who "are merely present" in the state this same opportunity; it is for hard working, Oregonian students who are institutionally discriminated against based on their parent's residency status. We are ensuring that students use the academic base set in Oregon high schools, and this is why I support HB2939
MyKala Stinson
Gender and Sexual Diversity Advocate
Western Oregon University
Administrative Director of the Oregon Student Equal Rights Alliance
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The proponents of HB2939 have expended great effort in assuring we non-believers that this is 'good policy', 'fair', 'fiscally responsible', etc. (my words, not theirs in all fairness), however, there is one GLARING problem with the entire scenario here:
It doesn't matter how cheap/expensive, educated/not educated, fair/unfair this is - for no matter the number of students, the degrees conferred, the expenses accrued... THOSE STUDENTS (as "Jennifer" interviewed for this story ) CANNOT LEGALLY WORK IN THE U.S. when all is said and done ANYWAY (at least for the subpopulation of non-American born students; noting the the US born group does have a subtle but different set of problems to overcome). For some, any/all the education could end up being a complete waste of time and resources.
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Well one of the requisites is to be working towards residency, so its highly likely that they would be able to work.
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"Well one of the requisites is to be working towards residency, so its highly likely that they would be able to work."
I agree, that is desirable and sounds good in theory, but I wonder how the actual application and enforcement of this will take place. I think this condition is the weakest one in the set listed for HB2939.
It appears to be another case of 'let's pass a law to get what ["we" - provide your group du jour here] want today, and put off on the actual implementation of the details until [some vague or uknown time or condition in the future]. I have posed the following questions to your side previously (different time/place) and STILL have yet to receive a complete and adequate response:
1. What happens if the person does not follow through on the residency process requirement?
2. Which steps in the process will be deemed sufficient to be considered compliant? (The statement 'working toward residency' is overly vague. I fear that, legally, it is probably meaningless, and hence unenforceable). The specific steps and USCIS form numbers need to be specified in order to easily determine compliance or non-compliance).
3. Will failure to comply be enforced with a withholding of a degree, reversion back to out-of-state tuition, or similar?
4. If, for whatever reason, USCIS issues a 'denial' and for an individual (included under this law) to leave the country (yes, it does happen...) what guarantee do we have that the person will comply with the order? What provisions exist to reward good behavior and punish or discourage bad behavior?
Look, I sympathize with these people somewhat at a personal level. Having attended 3 public universities and achieved 2-2.5 degrees (last officially an MSc), I know what the system 'is' and how it 'works' (or fails to work). At the same time, we are faced with this very problem because other laws were passed some time ago, that also promised 'the goods' up-front, but managed to obfuscate or put off the important details that ensured compliant behavior.
Had earlier immigration laws been honored and respected, this twisted scenario where people's lives hang in the balance would never have presented itself. Creating vague and nebulous laws which lack detail and leave large loopholes only guarantee that someone, somewhere, will be sitting down having a similar discussion in the future.
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Would anyone say that a parent who migrates to another part of the world to provide a better life for their family is ILLEGAL or criminal? To say that children should not be punished for the acts of their parents is saying that their parents did something morally wrong.
This whole debate about "illegal" is ridiculous, especially when policies in this country have been crafted throughout the US history to advantage some and disadvantage others.
Are all laws good? Was the Chinese Exclusion Act and laws to prohibit African-Americans, and other people of color, from voting good laws?
HB 2939 is a good and just law and should be passed!
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I agree with Jennifer who was brought to oregon when she was 11weeks old i believe since she grew up here and went to school to learn the laws and history about US she as well as other students in her possition should be able to have an opportunity to attend college with instate tuition. Otherwise the US is blocking what they call "american dream" the US and media lets the world kno it is a place where you can follow your dreams and make them happen. I believe if a student with that much drive to attend college should be treated like citizens since it is not their fault they came here so young. The US was set up with immigrants with a drive for opportunities. LET students like jennifer follow those dreams. She could become more educated and even educate those who are ignorant therefore bring wonderful things to the US.
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Jim says illigal ailians (i thik he should use immigrants) steal social securities but with that they STILL pay taxtes and when they retire they cant claim the money. so who keeps the cash???THE GOVERNMENT! so it benefits the US in a way.
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How do illegal aliens pay taxes? It is illegal to hire aliens, so they can't.
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KMFA wrote:
"How do illegal aliens pay taxes? It is illegal to hire aliens, so they can't."
Well, let me offer a small technical correction. Your statement should be: "
"How do illegal aliens pay taxes? It is illegal to hire illegal aliens, so they can't."
Technically, an "alien" (non-US citizen/resident) can be hired but only with authorization from the Fed. Gov't (USCIS). A temporary worker on a specialized visa would be a good example. Otherwise, you are correct - it is illegal to hire an illegal alien. US Federal Law is clear on this subject.
PS. "KMFA" - LOL, love that user name.
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As out-of-state tuition students attending OSU-Cascades, my friend B & I were outraged that Oregon would consider allowing someone who can not contribute to the economic system because they can not get employment because they have not acheived citizenship status pay in-state tuition. My friend & I have been paying federal taxes for over 10 years, and will be able to achieve employment post-graduation further contributing to this country, but still pay $6000 a quarter in tuition, compared to $2000 a quarter for in-state students. I moved to OR from WA, where I could see Portland from my front window, but still have to take out large student loans & will owe about $50,000 after graduating. Why should these undocumented aliens have more opportunities than actual U.S. citizens? When does it become their responsiblity to pursue the legal status of citizen? Why do aliens get the benefits of America without paying into the system? I have sympathy for these individuals who want a better life, but at some point they must make the effort to become legalized in order to be treated as Americans. The young woman from the show needs to become an American (legally), and then pay in-state tuition.
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Oregon has made the smartest commitment to educating all of our students in the K-12 system, but then we deny these students the opportunity to pay in state tution after they graduate from high school. Tuiton equity will strengthen our state in the end. I strongly support House Bill 2939.
Maggie Kuzmer
Western Oregon University
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House Bill 2939 would be unfair to students from foreign countries who study in our universities at out-of-state tuition rates, and later lawfully become citizens or obtain permanent residency, and contribute to Oregon's economy in the same manner the guest hopes to.
My question: why have out-of-state tuition at all? It creates little caldrons of insularity within each state. Oregon higher ed is basically middle of the pack -- it isn't like we have students knocking down our door to enter our universities to the extent some other states do. We should eliminate out of state tuitition and hope as many smart people come to Oregon as possible.
Mr. Jim Ludwick, who took the opposing view, said the problem is that Americans obey the "rule of law", and illegal immigrants aren't doing so. The patchwork federal state system we have, with its different policies regarding illegal immigrants, is proof that we in the U.S. have never agreed on a fundamental set of rules that apply to everyone. Historically, because we couldn't always agree, we decided to be bound by "common law", which isn't written down anywhere and which changes with the times to address new realities. If Mr. Ludwick wants to have a look at countries that operate by the "rule of law" he should move to a civil law country such as Japan, France, or Germany, etc., which write all laws in a big book, and don't have nestled federal and state systems with differing policy goals.
National borders are now and have always been porous. I myself have houses in two countries and freely (and lawfully) move between them. These days, people live in in a lot of different places and move around often. Sometimes, those people want to go to college. Oregon colleges should attempt to grab as many smart people from that people flow as they can, to improve its future tax base. Best plan = eliminate out of state tuitition.
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Comments are now closed.
House Bill 2939 is long overdue. Students can be born in Oregon, go Oregon schools for twelve years and then have to pay out-of-state tuition to attend an Oregon University System institution.
This is an egregious injustice. It's not an issue of immigration status. It's an issue of equitable access to higher education. Legislators need to treat it as such and prevent a large number of students from being priced out of an education.