SHARE THIS SHOW:
ON THE BLOG:
RELATED CONVERSATIONS:
RECENTLY ON TOL:
The TOL Blog
TAGS:
Urban Turbines
Portlanders may have noticed a new addition to the downtown skyline this week when four wind turbines were added to the roof of developer Gerding Edlen's new Twelve West Building on southwest 12th Avenue. These small-scale turbines (45 feet tall compared to the massive 400-foot turbines in the Columbia River Gorge) will only produce about one percent of the building's total energy usage. However, the development company also hopes their presence will help promote renewable energy and help Portland stand out in the field. Portland isn't the only city to try rooftop wind turbines. Boston, New York and Hampton, New Hampshire have all taken an interest in small scale wind power. Some green building experts have raised concerns about the economic and energy efficiency of urban turbines. Zoning laws would still have to change in Portland before people could install turbines on the roofs of their homes.
While the issues with integrating small-scale wind power into an urban landscape center mainly around questions of engineering and structural integrity, large-scale wind farms are still struggling with integrating their turbines with wildlife. And while urban and rural wind may still be an intermittent power source, the Bonneville Power Administration reported wind power generation was at an all time high earlier this month.
Have you considered putting a wind turbine on your home or business? What factors did you weigh in making your decision? Do you live near a rural wind farm? How has that impacted your life?
UPDATE: Sadly, we are going to start today's show with a look at the legacy of Bob Gerding, the co-founder of Gerding Edlen Development, who died on Tuesday. Feel free to post comments here about his impact on Portland — or on green building more broadly — in addition to your thoughts on urban turbines.
GUESTS:
- Damin Tarlow: Development manager for Gerdling Edlen Development
- Alex Wilson: Founder and executive editor of Building Green
- Andy Kruse: Senior VP of Business Development and Cofounder of Southwest Wind Power
- Brent Fenty: Executive Director of Oregon Natural Desert Association
- Chris Crowley: President of Columbia Energy Partners
Tagged as: alternative energy · energy · wind
Photo credit: maistora / Creative Commons
-
BTW, I don't think it is cost effective NOW, but it could be moreso if the committment were citywide, and as the technology improves. It is the social change that that would be part of a citywide committment on a small scale to energy conservation and self-creation.
-
I work for a solar installation company in Vancouver. We primarily do solar hot water, but we are looking into PV and wind. The wind products we are thinking about do not have the propelers that we all see in wind farms.
Vertical turbines seem to catch the wind better and has less of an impact on wildlife. On our first run of the figures, it appears that we can get 10% of our energy for one $10,000 wind turbine.
It will take some time for us to figure if this is viable and if the 10% per turbine is close. I welcome comments for or against these types of wind turbines.
-
Everyone wants a piece of the 'windfalls' from the green pie. Wind turbines on most buildings with the current technologies available are absurd. The amount of energy it takes to manufacture, transport, install and maintain these turbines, makes them a useless idea.
-
Urban wind turbines are an interesting idea. A few installations should be built to see how well they work but I don't think wind energy in Portland is steady enough. Wind turbines are not aesthetically pleasant and impact bird flight. Solar offers more potential. Let's put our energy into maximizing solar.
-
Why aren't the real costs and benefits discussed. How much taxpayer money is required. What are the annual maintenance costs per year? How much energy in dollars can a small wind turbine generate. Does a rooftop turbine pay for itself in a 5 year period or is it just a feel good project?
When I see a taxpayer subsidized turbine on a building's roof I will think, "what a waste of money". Let's use public money to build real sustainable energy sources like nuclear power.
-
If you want something that pays for itself in 5 years, you'll have to look really hard. Solar hot water is as little as 8 years (most likely 12-15 depending on certain things), PV is around 50 years (in the Northwest at least) and I haven't done the numbers for wind yet.
But, where can you get something that will double your money in 5 years? Banks and credit unions give 1.25% to 2.25% interest, respectively. That's a far cry from 5 years.
As for nuclear power, Bonneville had the option of building a new power plant some years ago and instead decided to support renewable energy by offering $2,000 rebates. For a tenth of what they paid out during this program, enough energy was saved for about as mouch as a power plant would put out. Now power plants cost twice as much and the last Bush administration pulled the plug on the rebate program because they believe that government should not be in the business of competing with the coal and oil industries.
But don't get me wrong. I understand that our current selection of sustainable options are not consistent enough for our needs. So I think that we should use it all. We have solar for when we get solar radiation (notice I didn't say sunshine), wind turbines for when the wind is blowing, hydro for those who have the capability, and, yes, oil and gas.
I believe we need it all, but the more we spread out our resources, the less reliant we are on just one or two.
-
What about the helix shaped windmills?
I saw these on the Planet-Green Channel.
They make less noise, and work better in turbulence than conventional designs.
-
I think this is a really important point to consider. Not only would it allow for the installation of more components but they would have less impact on the building's structure/reverberation. Also, the impact in the bird paths, as suggested earlier, would be substantially different.
Plus, they have a very unique structure that would draw interest.
-
I just want to comment on Bob Gerding's sad passing. I had the privilege and honor of knowing Bob and Diana through his struggle with cancer. Even in what would seem the darkest of times to most people, Bob was one of the most generous people I have ever met. Both generous with his resources and generous of spirit, I think Bob's great success came from his passion and his genuine love for his community. His love for the outdoors prompted him to promote sustainability in his work. His love for the arts prompted him to promote and support them in our community. Through his own battle with cancer, he realized the great need for research funding and so he gave generously to that cause. Bob put a little bit of himself in everything he did and I believe Portland is better for it.
-
Thank you, taralyn13, for sharing your memories.
-
The wind patterns in the Columbia Gorge have changed from the 1980s to now. When I first started windsurfing in 1990 the wind blew hard, steady and often. Many days of 30 mph plus wind were enjoyed from Rooster Rock out to Arlington from April through November.
Over the past decade the wind has become gustier and less consistent. Gusty 20-25 mph winds have become more common.
Weather patterns like El Nino and La Nina are often fingered as culprits, but I think global weather change will change wind patterns such that wind farms may become useless as wind patterns weaken or shift from where they are today.
I also blame (without evidence) clear-cut forestry and urbanization of the west side of the Cascades as another culprit. Gorge winds are driven by a thermal difference between the west and east sides of the Cascades.
Cool air flows from the ocean into the desert where air is heated and rises. The west side has a lot more asphalt and houses now so the temperature differential that creates strong winds has been lessened.
-
Think this discussion is very interesting and I was listening but not so carefully to catch who commented that it is important to see the turbines WORKING-actually turning to share the message-but I think the true message-the impactful message that makes one stop and think is when you have a warm day that nothing is blowing and you realize wind energy is at a standstill-but energy use is up...same as a pouring rain day if you could see not much energy is being generated by solar...we need to expand all all alternative energy sources and make it visual-a sort of thermometer that shows the use of the city and how it is being off set by any energy.
-
I am a resident of eastern Oregon who has both grew up in the urban environment of Portland and lived in rural places around the west. My experiences living in the rural environment has reaffirmed the need for the urban environment to find solutions for their living needs that does not mine the rural for the resources. Eastern Oregonians are currently challenging the Boardman to Hemingway transmission line that Idaho Power is working to ramrod through private land in order to avoid Environmental Impact Statements. The coal for the Boardman plant comes from Wyoming by rail daily. A wind turbine grid is proposed on private land on the foothills of the Cove Oregon which is the gateway to the Eagle Cap Wilderness. Obviously eastern Oregon has space, it has solar, and it has wind. We ship our energy to the urban. We ship our food and grassseed to the urban. Mining the rural resources provides economic rewards for the corporate stakeholders and marginalizes the vast majority of people living in these rural places. This feeling of being marginalized is further perpetutated by the urban/rural west/east divide so prevalent in Oregon. The distance people experience from their energy source and food source enables people to continue viewing progress as unchecked growth. Turning inward and evaluating the resources available within one's bioregion both manages growth and develops sustainable communities.
-
People in rural areas are constantly being taken advantage of and are perpetual victims of people in urban areas---please. Most people in rural areas survive because of people in urban areas. Farms exist because people around the world (many in cities) buy the goods. Cities are better for the environment. Living in a rural area is a spacial luxury, that generally has a bigger footprint then living in an urban area. Where do people in rural areas get their power? Are they generating it themselves? People in rural areas can also benefit from green power. They don't live in a bell jar, they are also part of the energy grid.
-
I think you might have overlooked my last statement -- turn inward and evaluate the resources available within one's bioregion both manages growth and develops sustainable communities. Secondly, spacial luxury is just one of the benefits of living in a rural place. I would also say there are social benefits and economic benefits. I know of many people in eastern Oregon that would argue that they exist because of western Oregon. The argument that farms exist because of the urban may be a current trend but looking back historically farms existed because they contributed to the needs of their local communities first and foremost. As far as energy needs, the rural is indeed tied to the energy grid. We do have great potential for wind production but that production of energy is not directly tied to our communities. It goes into the grid and eventually ends up at our homes. Decentralizing the grid and developing local solutions to our needs is really the only way to create sustainable and livable places.
-
kalle1974,
I wasn't replying to your comment specifically. Sorry that probably wasn't clear.
This is nothing to do with the trendy alleged urban rural divide. Which is more often then not a divide created and imagined by the rural side. A wolf cry if you will. This is about function. This isn't about the urban folk trying to railroad and pillage the rural folk. It is commonsense that a dense population will probably need to go elsewhere for some of its resources. Or the urban populations could simply spread out all over the land and equalize the density so no one would be rural or urban and then we wouldn't have to hear about how rural people are marginalized by the evil urban folk.
Yes, I agree it is generally good for everyone to try and get resources from a place in proximity. It makes functional sense. But of course this isn't always possible. Nor is it always possible for rural people to get all their requirements, resources, goods, from their own area. They need vehicles, tv's, structures, roads, radio stations, medication, books---which are probably not manufactured in their own backyard. This rural/urban argument is a red herring.
-
It was a pleasure being on the show this morning. If anyone wants to read more of my thoughts on the practicality of building-integrated wind, this link will get you to the article:
http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/2009/4/29/The-Folly-of-Building-Integrated-Wind/
-Alex Wilson
-
Having read this article and other information sources about wind power I find that the wind turbines are too intrusive! The noise from the wind turbines and the safety issues are not acceptible to me. Most of the data I've read shows that wind turbines are not cost effective. I'd prefer urban solar panel use. I live near a canning company that uses a lot of heavy equipment. I am bothered by the vibrations from their turbines! I have to have the TV on or listen to music during the day, and wear earplugs at night to drown it out and to find some comfort from it! Urban wind turbines is a Bad idea! Far, Far, away from the public is much better and a must!
-
Thanks for having me on the show earlier today...
One point we didn't have time to cover I want to offer for your listeners... In a broader discussion of the efficacy of renewable energy, it's important for Oregonians to note that resource diversity is essential for making renewable energy a major component of our energy supply. With some 1,200 MW of wind power located in the Columbia River Gorge today (and more on the way) that produces most of its power in the spring and summer, it's vitally important that diverse renewable resources be added to balance out that seasonal output.
Our Harney County projects will produce more than 50% of their power during the months of Dec-March, when Gorge winds are still.
ONDA may say "build it somewhere else," but there simply is no where else in Oregon where winds blow in those months the way they do on our site.
Another point I hope is not lost in this: Harney County's economy is in desperate need of investment. They targeted renewable energy in their Comp Plan in 1985 - finally, with our projects, they will see that come to fruition.
As the Sierra Club's Carl Pope said in a recent visit to Portland, there's no more "free lunch" on renewable energy these days. All projects have impacts. Hopefully, people following our projects will consider the benefits of resource diversity our Harney County projects offer - with minimal impacts.
-
On behalf of ONDA, I want to thank OPB for providing this forum for open discussion of alternative energy solutions in our state.
ONDA hopes to work with all stakeholders to ensure that wind energy development is done in an effective and responsible way. To this end ONDA collaborated with five other conservation groups to author a wind report titled “Oregon’s High Desert Wind Energy: Opportunities and Strategies for Responsible Development” which addresses many issues surrounding wind development in Oregon’s high desert.
Using GIS analysis the report has determined that approximately 6.8 million acres of land in the study area has low to moderate potential for environmental or social conflict. Of this 467,000 acres have been identified has having high wind resources. As Mr. Crowley mentioned, these regions are largely public lands, thus we feel the public must be involved with every step of the process.
ONDA also feels it's important to note that there are over two dozen proposed wind development projects in Southeast Oregon-outside of the Steens-that would fulfill the need for wind energy in the winter months (Dec-Mar).
Wind energy promises to play a significant role in providing clean energy and strong job creation in areas that need it most but it must not be done in a way that fails to recognize and address its true costs.
The full wind report can be read here: http://www.onda.org/enforcing-conservation-laws/issue-areaz/windreport
Thank you -
I'm also a staff member at ONDA, and just wanted to add some information about effects of wind power development on sage-grouse. The Oregon Department of Fish & Wildlife, based on scientific studies of other energy development impacts, in 2005 recommended at least a five mile set-back of wind energy generation and transmission projects from occupied sage-grouse habitat. http://www.dfw.state.or.us/wildlife/sagegrouse/pdf/section_5.pdf. The potential for serious harm to sage-grouse was confirmed in a recent (July 2009) study published by the U.S. Department of Energy, titled "Sage-Grouse and Wind Energy: Biology, Habits and Potential Effects from Development" (available at http://www.pnl.gov/main/publications/external/technical_reports/PNNL-18567.pdf).
Extrapolating from the devastating effects of oil and gas development in Wyoming on sage-grouse there, the July 2009 study concluded that "Both wind farms and oil and gas fields consist of large aggregations of infrastructure and activities that share some common features, such as transmission lines and roads, and differ in others, such as wind turbines. Impacts to sage-grouse from wind energy development would likely be similar to those resulting from fossil fuel development described in Section 4" - that is, major harm to the birds, including causing them to abandon nesting and mating sites, abandoning winter habitat, and reducing their reproductive rates.
Wind turbines, with their height, noise and "shadow-flicker," can lead birds that live in a relatively flat and featureless habitat to move many miles away from these projects, and from their necessary habitat. Transmission lines similarly can become perches for predators and lead either directly to sage-grouse deaths or to driving them away from their habitat. In short, wind power development can play havoc with these birds, and it's important that we not ignore or minimize the potential for serious consequences of industrial-scale energy projects on this dwindling species.
- Dave Becker, Staff Attorney, ONDA
-
We don't expect this.
latex mattress -
These small turbines can have so much power. That's amazing. But it's a good news.
mattress -
Comments are now closed.
I have not considered wind turbines but I don't think I'm very well situated for wind. However, I always consider solar (right now - patio and path lighting), and I'd love to find micro water turbines for my downspouts. I don't think they'd add a lot of power to the grid, but they would be interesting to tinker with, could even be decorative, and I just think they would be fun.
I'm firmly in the camp of energy conservation and wise use, and I think offsetting off any amount of power on a small scale gets us closer, especially if a lot of people do it. Think how different Portland's power profile would be if EVERY roof and street light had solar and every tall power pole had a small wind turbine. (even the micro water turbines could be significant if there were thousands of them)