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Bob_Loblaw's comments:
on Scientology
Here's an excellent video on Scientology:
http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
@Tom: It's fair to say that any group of people is capable of these actions; to limit it to religion would be myopic. Exhibit A: Orwell's "Animal Farm". Correlation is not causation.
Religion, government, organization, knitting club: they are all capable of organizing bad behavior and abuse. I think this is a more useful and pragmatic tack to take, and allows us to more carefully study key elements of abusive groups: acceptance of perceived power, unreasonable promises, discouraging critical thinking, etc.
I am agnostic on the issue of religion: I'd say belief in either God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster ("Touched By His Noodly Appendage") is fine as long as we concomitantly work to cultivate a thoughtful, ethical worldview enlightened by socio/cultural/economic contexts. Maybe I ask for too much, but I'd rather die trying.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
From JeffersonH: "It's the standard Church handling. Deny everything. Attack the critics personally. Try to discredit them with negative buzzwords, implied associations and vague allegations."
Ironic that this sort of policy exists at an organization that claims to be open-minded and wanting to help people.
Last time I checked, we learn things by engaging in dialogue with others. Not attacking them. Not engaging in ad hominem tactics. And especially not by sending in lawyers and CIA-like thugs.
These are not the behaviors of a good, healthy organization that wants to change the world for the better.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
There is, I must say, a key difference: when the vast majority of people leave their church, they're not pursued by lawyers and a CIA-like organization (look up "OSA" on Wikipedia) and aren't told that they can't see their children or grandchildren.
To say that other faiths do this in volume is, quite frankly, not reality.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
Scientology may not have a god, but I'd hate to be the poor soul that is judged poorly when "Staturday" comes around.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
I'm sure they would, except that they're heavily discouraged from reading media (which is full of "lies") and have probably spent their last few cents on purchasing Scientology training materials.
That said, they would probably have use for that Electric Bike that "Assists" when riding uphill! That's a good OPB pledge drive giveaway right there!
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
@Jeffrey: Neither guest was "stirring up hate", nor have they behaved in a manner that was hateful.
I have no interest in hate for anyone: the world has enough of that. I'm actively involved in and contribute extensively to charitable work in Portland and very much want to make The Planet a better place.
I want the things you want: world peace, a better environment, an end to wars and hunger. If I'm a shill because of that desire, well, you should be too.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
@Louanne: Also, if Paul Haggis has been able to "pretend" his way to OT-VII, then it's clear there are a few good answers:
1) His Auditing over all of these years has been a failure, and the E-Meter has failed to identify and root him out. Scientology "Tech" doesn't work.
2) He has had access to Scientology's "best" Auditors at Celebrity Centres and elsewhere. Scientology's Auditors don't work.
3) He's been praised in numorous Scientology articles and lauded throughout the years for his "Ethics." Scientology must not work.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
Louanne: To quote you: "So, who gives a flying f**k about what Haggis "feels reminded" about?" Well, I think a lot of people would give a "flying f**k" about young children that are being subjected to demeaning manual labor, especially by an organization that touts how "ethical" it is.
And, notably, Haggis was an OT-VII: he's a person you've read about in your Scientology magazines over the years, and now he's out. Did it ever occur to you that someone who was so loyal to Scientology's "Tech" and who espoused what you call "KSW" ("Keeping Scientology Working") for many years may actually have some valid points about Scientology doing something very, very wrong?
[Also, for those unfamiliar with OT-VII: this is a level of "Operating Thetan" which is considered a exceptionally high level of achievement in Scientology. If I recall correctly, the only higher (current) level is OT-VIII. To reach these levels can easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Long story short: people who reach these levels are hardly dabblers in Scientology: they're quite entangled in it.]
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
Louanne: I (nor anyone else) should condone any activity that harms others. That noted, Anonymous is no more of a "group" than People Who Use Facebook.
I find it curious that you and other Scientologists posting on this forum have provided exactly zero responses to what Paul Haggis said in The New Yorker. You can continue to "Always Attack" (I'm quoting L. Ron Hubbard here), and continue to look poorly to the rest of the planet you'd like to "Clear."
I could ask you to take a serious look at what your COB Miscavige is doing and try to reform your Church. Your leader is, in your parlance, "a squirrel."
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
Jeanne: You are clearly missing my point about Anonymous. I shall repeat this again for your benefit: it's simply a bunch of people who exchange ideas over the Internet.
Your repeated insistence that Hawkins is incorrect because your definition of Anonymous is both wrong and fiction. This is, my dear, one of the problems with blind faith in any organization that encourages you to trust and believe only them.
As I've noted before, there is nothing wrong with doubt; there is something wrong when one doesn't feel free to explore all sides of it.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
@Dayle: Turning off Emily's show means that you clearly haven't applied the Tech described in TR0. Don't turn away: CONFRONT.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
Based on what you said, we should now put little value or importance on calling out sexual abuse in the Catholic church because it's a religion.
This is neither about Scientology's moral code nor what it has done for anyone: it's about abuses that thousands of people have reported, including ones that have caused serious mental or physical harm.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
Why are you insulted? The local Portland Church of Scientology was invited to join Ms. Harris for the show, but declined. If you want someone to blame, visit your local Org.
I'm glad to hear your life has been made better. However, there are thousands of individuals whose lives have been made far worse by their participation in Scientology. It's OK if you don't believe me, but you should feel OK about doubt and as such, you should act upon it by being open-minded and honestly listening to the grievances of others.
Paul Haggis was an OT-VII and had a long history of donating substantial amounts of money to Scientology. As someone who was highly respected within Scientology--and now out--he, of all people, is at least worthy of consideration.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
To Emily Harris and supporting TOL crew: I want to echo Gargy's sentiments. Scientology and concerns about related abuses can be complex to discuss. I think the topic was covered as best as it could be within the confines of the show, and I praise TOL and OPB for even broaching this subject.
Please continue the excellent work for many more shows to come!
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
One clear difference between Scientology and other religions: they don't show up at your magazine to speak to the Editor-in-Chief with a PR rep and four lawyers. As happened in the case of The New Yorker.
Scientology's frequent use of litigation and extremely heavy lawyering is, ostensibly, absolutely unparalleled by several magnitudes. This is one nuance that undoubtedly makes it quite different from other "new religious movements."
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
@Jeffrey: Why are you so hostile (Tone 1.9)? You should confront people who are critical of your path with dialogue.
Calling people names: cruel things done by children on playgrounds that are, quite frankly, shameful things as adults to engage in.
Warm Regards,
-Bob "Tone 40"
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
Joel, I'm sure there'll be a "Sec Check" and investigation on you the moment either of your children decide say anything that is even vaguely critical of Scientology.
No reasonable person would consider this behavior consistent with a "happy" and well-motivated group.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
Jeanne, you're trying to imply that Jeff is somehow "bad" because of your claims that he is associated with a non-existent group. FLUNK.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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on Scientology
Human Trafficking and slavery: they happen when someone is unable to act freely and is not of sound mind and body.
In far too many cases from the Sea Org and other parts of Scientology, I can't see how Scientologists are acting freely: they're subjected to tremendous psychological and physical abuse, are chased down and captured when they try to escape, and--when they finally do--are told that they will be DISCONNECTED and SHUNNED by family and friends who may be the only folks that they know.
posted 2 years, 3 months ago
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