Last month, the Biden administration announced an agreement with four Northwest tribes, the states of Oregon and Washington, and environmental groups around the waterways of the Columbia River Basin. As a part of the agreement, the Federal Government commits to fund salmon restoration projects, build clean energy generation for the tribes and clear the pathway for the possible eventual removal of the four Lower Snake River dams. We talk to Nez Perce Tribal Chairman Shannon Wheeler, who is party to the agreement, and Kurt Miller, executive director of the Northwest Public Power Association, who wrote a letter objecting to the agreement.
Note: This transcript was computer generated and edited by a volunteer.
Dave Miller: This is Think Out Loud on OPB. I’m Dave Miller. We start today with a major development in the fight over four dams on the lower Snake River. The Biden administration announced an agreement last month with four Northwest tribes, the States of Oregon and Washington, and the environmental law group Earthjustice. In return for a ten year pause in long standing litigation, the federal government has committed to fund salmon restoration projects and tribal clean energy projects. This could clear the pathway for the removal of the lower Snake River dams. In just a bit we’re going to hear from the executive director of the Northwest Public Power Association which objects to the agreement. But we start with one of the parties to it. Shannon Wheeler is the Nez Perce tribal chairman. Welcome to Think Out Loud.
Shannon Wheeler: Well, I’m glad to be here. I appreciate this opportunity to be able to share with you our story.
Miller: How long have you personally been engaged in legal battles over salmon and these dams?
Wheeler: Well, the tribe’s first resolution in opposition started in the 1990s, so we’ve been involved in it since. We’re just trying to fulfill our obligation to the salmon and to continue their existence.
Miller: What has been driving you for 30-plus years? What’s at stake in these legal battles?
Wheeler: Well, for us, the existence of a species and their possible extinction because of man made decisions that have been made before any of us that are on this call or listening now. And so I think being able to look at that and learn from that and move forward in a positive direction, that on our watch, this isn’t going to happen, and for us to make the necessary changes that we can do now that will ensure the continuation of the species.
Miller: What do you think made the difference now on the federal government’s side? After fighting your suits for so long, why do you think they made the commitments that they did?
Wheeler: Well, I think they understand that they are fellow executors of the rule of law, which I believe that under the constitution, judges are bound by that. They understand their obligation to what treaty actually means. And many times, you’ll see judges that understand that and administrations that may or may not understand that commitment, and legislators that certainly understand that they’re committed by affirmation or oath to that same rule of law, the Constitution of the United States of America. And that’s where our treaty sits. So that trust obligation and that commitment from sovereign to sovereign is truly important to understand here of what this administration understands about that. And many times, I don’t believe stakeholders understand what these treaties actually mean or the magnitude of what they are, not only here within the United States, but globally as the United States has looked at in its relationships to the native tribes of this land.
Miller: You’re getting to this, but in case folks may not be familiar with relatively recent developments, the framework for this agreement comes from a document called the Columbia Basin Restoration Initiative, a road map that includes the Nez Perce Tribe along with the Confederated Tribes and Bands of the Yakama Nation, the Confederate Tribes of the Umatilla Indian Reservation, and the Confederated Tribes of the Warm Springs Reservation, along with the states of Washington and Oregon. What did it mean for all of these sovereign nations and these two states to work together with the federal government?
Wheeler: I think it’s the understanding that we need to do something now, and that status quo hasn’t been cutting it. And there’s things that we can do, things that we can change and should change and will change that will ensure that these species continue to exist on this planet and in these waters that we all call home here in the Columbia River Basin. And I think as we look at those things together and we understand that by coming to the table, that’s where problems are solved. And I think that’s truly what the sovereigns understand about moving forward, is that there needs to be some commitments from the federal government and as well as ourselves. Because it’s not only the federal government committed to the tribes, but we’re also committed to the United States of America through several different treaties that we have, and several actions that we have taken as tribal nations to ensure that those things and those obligations and that mutual agreement and mutual benefits for all still remain in effect.
Miller: What do you see as the most important parts of this agreement in terms of what the federal government says it will do?
Wheeler: Well, I think it shows a path forward to keeping the Pacific Northwest whole, and looking at all the different entities and stakeholders and being able to ask them to do something different other than status quo. To move forward, to embrace new technologies or renewable energies, and make the change. We have to develop a will for that. And if we’re unable to develop that will, then that’s where we get resistance for change. But change needs to happen, because of the demise of the salmon that have happened over the last 50 years as we continue to see them on a path towards extinction. And I think understanding treaty and understanding that that’s locked in our treaty, that that is one of our rights that we have. The federal government understands that right and their obligation to that.
So as we continue to move forward, working together, and understanding that change can happen. The MOU was signed by Bonneville Power Administration, by the Department of Interior, by NOAA, by the Army Corps of Engineers, all of the different federal agencies have signed on to this agreement in order to move things forward and to give the salmon a chance.
Miller: The language of this agreement says that the Biden administration is committing to do many things: to fund restoration efforts, to fund tribal clean energy initiatives. But they’re not guaranteeing that they’ll do anything. We’re not yet talking about actual outlays of money. We’re not at all talking about congressional authorization of funds. How much confidence do you have that the Biden administration can do and will do what it says it plans to do?
Wheeler: Well as a sovereign to another sovereign, and a fellow executor of the rule of law, we feel their obligation to that and their understanding to that is something that they will uphold. Because we know the world is watching. We know the rest of the world is watching what’s happening here in the Pacific Northwest. And we understand that them moving forward with the opportunities that present themselves with advancing the Pacific Northwest into a better place, they see that as well. And they take the gross domestic product into consideration, they take into consideration the energy needs of the Pacific Northwest, and the irrigation needs for the agriculture community. They’re looking at Governor Inslee and Senator Murray’s report, and what they were asking in that report, what would need to be done for them to consider moving something forward that would even resemble a debate on the hill for breaching of the four lower Snake River dams. And I think when you put those things in place, that you’re giving the salmon a chance, and you’re giving the opportunity for legislators across the nation to make an informed decision based on facts and information that are true and relevant to the life of the salmon.
Miller: So you’re not worried that a presidential administration with one year left in its current term, that it’s making a promise based on a 10-year time horizon?
Wheeler: I think it just shows the commitment that an administration is willing to move this forward to this point. And obviously, that’s something new that we haven’t seen over the course of time. We know what a judge can do. We know a judge can order a high spill. And we understand that the climate crisis is where it’s at. We understand that the water situations in the mountain range in the region are changing. We see the climate models over the next 100 years, and what that’s going to do to the system and how that’s going to change the flow of the rivers. That will come into play at some point in time. And so with one year remaining in this administration, I think they’re showing their commitment to the rule of law. And I think that’s what’s truly important for us is that we have an administration that’s willing to sit and understand that they’ve been obligated to this for quite some time, since 1855. And so we, as the Nez Perce Tribe, look to resolve the issues that we face.
And if I could add to that, we look at our relationship as an obverse relationship. There’s two sides to a coin, one side being of that coin being the United States, the other side being the Nez Perce Tribe, and minted of the same, under mutual agreement for mutual benefit. And so what one side does should not burden the other side. And if that’s the case, then it’s up to the opposite side to say “hey, what you’re doing over there is killing our fish. And so we need to make a change.” We’re here to solve the problems. We’re not the enemy here. We’re here to solve as a sovereign to sovereign.
Miller: We’re going to be talking in just a minute or two with Kurt Miller, the executive director of the Northwest Public Power Association. In a recent letter to Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm he wrote “it is inexplicable that the negotiations between the US government and the six sovereigns completely excluded the utilities that are responsible for providing a critical service to millions of customers.” I want to give you a chance to respond to that.
Wheeler: I think the Department of Energy and Bonneville Power Administration, who pretty much supply the power to the Pacific Northwest along with other power producers, are there at the table. And the interest of those parties are, I think, represented in that case. They’re looking at, can we make changes? I think we can. Are there opportunities? Yes, there are opportunities. Do we need to look into those opportunities and see if this will fit the portfolio that’s needed to replace the energy that the four lower Snake River dams actually produce? And then the long term commitments of the energy needs. And so those are two separate topics there, and we definitely want to keep those two topics apart from one another, because one is actually affecting something that is promised in our treaty, and the other is something that we as a Nez Perce Tribe know that the Pacific Northwest needs. So we’re just looking for those commitments to be thoroughly looked at and understood, and know that we can make the necessary changes now so that the fish do not go extinct on our watch.
Miller: Chairman Wheeler, thanks very much.
Wheeler: Thank you.
Miller: Shannon Wheeler is the Nez Perce tribal chairman.
For another perspective on this agreement, I am joined now by Kurt Miller. He is the executive director of the Northwest Public Power Association. It’s made up of over 150 consumer-owned electric utilities in the Western US and British Columbia. Kurt Miller, welcome.
Kurt Miller: Hey, thanks so much. I really appreciate the chance to be here.
Miller: So I want to start with your accusation to the federal government that you were improperly excluded from this agreement. What’s your argument?
K. Miller: That’s a great question. Until recently, I was the head of Northwest River Partners, which represents many of the same community owned utilities that NWPPA represents. And we are in that organization, a hydropower advocacy group. We had standing in the case that led to the negotiations that you and Chair Wheeler were talking about. And we were invited by the US government to participate in negotiations. But the Council for Environmental Quality, who was essentially leading the negotiations, chose to leave us out entirely, and the 4.5 million utility customers that we represent from the negotiations, we were not allowed to participate even though we had standing in court. So we were invited to participate. But then when they actually started negotiating, they didn’t allow us to participate. And I go back to Chairman Wheeler’s quote, he said that if everyone can come to the table, that’s when new solutions can be achieved. And we weren’t afforded that opportunity.
And I think that’s really disturbing because any changes to the lower Snake River dams will tremendously impact electricity customers across the entire region.
Miller: We’ll get to the possibility of what you see as changes to the lower Snake River dams in just a second, because to me that remains, to me, a huge question. But what would you have pushed for if you had been at the table? And how would you have wanted the ultimate agreement to be different?
K. Miller: That’s a really thoughtful question. And I didn’t know that you were gonna have access to the letter that we sent, which I’m glad you did.
Miller: The whole world has access to that letter, it’s on the internet.
K. Miller: I appreciate you doing the homework. So how would we have liked to see it different? We believe…I think I speak on behalf of the entire public power community, utilities that are owned and operated by customers essentially across the west. There are a lot of things that the Bonneville Power Administration or the Department of Energy, they don’t represent our members’ perspectives. We respect those organizations, they’re great, but they’re not the ones who are responsible for actually serving the end customer, and that’s the expertise we bring.
The agreement calls for building tribal wind and solar power projects and counting that as “replacement energy,” it’s in quotes, for the lower Snake River dams. Well, even if you talk to the Department of Energy, they will tell you that wind and solar power really aren’t a suitable replacement for hydropower because those other resources, they are intermittent, they’re not always available. They’re very short term weather dependent. Whereas hydropower you can store water behind the dam, and then release it to generate electricity, so it’s available on demand. So things like that, that were included in the agreement that really should have never been included in the agreement, we believe potentially threaten the future grid reliability for the Pacific Northwest.
We really worked hard on this once we actually got to see the memorandum of understanding, we asked specifically to put in there a “Not to Exceed” clause, in terms of cost that could come back to local communities. Because BPA is not funded by the federal government, it’s funded by utilities that I represent and their customers, and that money goes through rates to pay the Bonneville Power administration. So if BPA ends up having to pay billions of dollars in cost to fulfill the terms of this memorandum of understanding, that doesn’t go to taxpayers in the US, that actually falls on local communities and their customers.
Miller: To go back to the first point you were making though, isn’t it the case that there will be plenty of opportunity for your association, and anybody in this country with power and influence and the ability to talk to lawmakers, plenty of chances for you to weigh in well before the dams are actually breached?
K. Miller: I mean I hope so. I will tell you that this process makes me question that, because we were supposed to weigh in this time, and we were denied that voice. So I think you could see where I might not trust government processes as much going forward because this was not a fair process. We had a right to participate and that right was ignored.
I have a lot of respect for Chairman Wheeler, by the way. We’ve been on debate panels together and I think he’s incredibly well spoken and a really thoughtful person, and I respect their worldview. Our worldviews don’t necessarily perfectly align, but I have a lot of respect for it. But what I’ll say here is that I know that Chair Wheeler would not have been comfortable having some other organization speak for them in those negotiations. And I think he would understand why I wouldn’t be comfortable having the Bonneville Power Administration or the Department of Energy speaking for our members. I just think that we had that right.
Will we have opportunities going forward to participate in those discussions? I hope so. But one of the things that you actually have to read in the Memorandum of Understanding, and I think you did, was that we are not guaranteed to be participants in many of the conversations now that the six sovereigns are going to be having with BPA. It was almost written into it that we’re excluded in these conversations going forward. So that’s a big concern that you’ve identified, will we really have that opportunity? I hope we do.
Miller: I was also thinking more about lobbying in Congress, because in the end, isn’t that where this is going to come down to, whether or not they authorize the breaching of the dams?
K. Miller: I think that most people do agree, and the Biden administration has been very clear, that this decision does come down to Congress. But the thing that you have to understand as well is that this is kind of a long-term battle, and there will be more political pressure applied to Congress as a result of this agreement. And so in some cases, it makes it harder for us to defend the things that we would typically defend because this is kind of moving the bar a little bit. If you think about that in this context, it’s not so much will we have an opportunity to express our concerns, but it’s really giving up some ground that we really don’t want to give up in terms of progress towards dam breaching, because we don’t think it’s in the interest of the community.
Miller: While you’re on the line, I did want to ask you about another federal initiative. In May, the Biden administration announced that it was making almost $10 billion available for rural electric cooperatives to do things like put in renewable energy or zero emission or carbon capture systems. They say it was the single largest investment in rural electrification since the New Deal in the 1930s. And if I’m not mistaken, many of the entities that make up your association are rural electrification. Will your members be able to take advantage of this?
K. Miller: That’s a great question. $10 billion does sound like a lot of money, and it is a lot of money. But there are literally thousands of rural electric co-ops in the United States. And so the challenge is there will still be a lot of competition for dollars. There are certain specific qualifications required. And there is an opportunity here. But whether or not my individual members could actually benefit, will really depend on specific circumstances. I think that anything the Biden administration can do to help those utilities is very welcome, but it isn’t necessarily an answer for this particular issue.
Miller: Kurt Miller, thanks very much. I look forward to talking again.
K. Miller: Hey, thank you. I really appreciate your time and research.
Miller: Kurt Miller is the executive director of the Northwest Public Power Association.
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