According to Credence Research, the U.S. plus-size women’s clothing market is expected to be worth over $101 billion by 2032. But at the same time, within the past few years the market has faced challenges with major retailers like Old Navy and the LOFT scaling back on its sizes. Why do retailers struggle to meet the needs of plus-size clientele, and what does it take to make plus-size clothing consumers want? To answer these questions and more we’re joined by Claire Doody. She is the owner and designer of Copper Union, a Portland-based plus-size fashion line. We’ll also hear from Kelsey Conser, the owner of I Want Seconds, a plus-size focused thrift store in Portland that recently celebrated its one-year anniversary.
The following transcription was created by a computer and edited by a volunteer:
Dave Miller: This is Think Out Loud on OPB. I’m Dave Miller. According to Credence Research, the women’s plus-size clothing market in the US is expected to be worth over $100 billion by 2032. At the same time, the market has faced some challenges within the past few years, with major retailers like Old Navy and the LOFT scaling back on their larger sizes. Why do retailers struggle to meet the needs of plus-size clientele, a huge percentage of American consumers? And why are so few making plus-size clothing that actually fits?
To answer these questions and more, we are joined by Claire Doody and Kelsey Conser. Claire is the owner and designer of Copper Union, a Portland-based plus-size fashion line. Kelsey is the owner of I Want Seconds, a thrift store in Portland focused on plus-size clothing that recently celebrated its one-year anniversary. Welcome to Think Out Loud.
Claire Doody: Thanks.
Kelsey Conser: Thank you for having me.
Miller: Claire, first. Why did you want to create a company exclusively for plus-size women’s clothing?
Doody: As someone who’s lived in a larger body the majority of my life, I always have loved fashion. I’ve always loved fiber arts and expressing myself through my style. And it’s one of those classic stories of when I was a little girl, this is what I wanted to do. And it took me until I was 30 years old to make that dream come true. But I’m really grateful that I get to do it every day and help others express themselves through their clothes as well.
Miller: I’ve read that the average size of American women right now is 16 or 18. In general, where do clothing companies set their starting points for what they call “plus sizes”?
Doody: So it kind of varies. For runway, they would say 10 or 12, which I find kind of ridiculous. But, for actual retail, usually around a 14/16 is where they will start. There is kind of this zone that has now been dubbed “mid-size” – it’s kind of a controversial term to some people – but that kind of encompasses the 10 to 16 range. There’s some stores that will stop at a 10, there’s some stores that will go to a 16, and so it kind of depends on exactly where you are, because there’s a jump from what is considered straight size – which is below plus size – and then plus size. And so there’s stores that have an overlap, and sometimes there’s stores that are missing that overlap as well.
Miller: But wherever that line is, it seems like it is below where the average American customer of women’s clothing is right now. I mean, how much of the clothing sold in this country can’t be worn by a majority of women?
Doody: I would say probably 70-80%. The statistic that is used the most is that 68% of average American women are above a size 16, and I would say probably about 12% of retailers sell plus. So it is a huge gap in the market. It is something that unfortunately, like you said, is being scaled back and is being rolled back and not being addressed in the way that it should be.
Miller: And just to be clear, we’re not talking here about Paris runways or New York Fashion Week, right? I mean, this gap includes fast fashion and the kinds of stores that people – real people – actually shop at.
Doody: Correct. Yeah, we’re talking about bras, underwear, jeans, t-shirts, we’re talking about every single basic fashion item, all the way up to beautiful couture pieces. But, for the most part, everyday basics are extremely hard for plus-size people to find in physical retail locations.
Miller: Kelsey, is that a key here, physical retail locations as opposed to online retail?
Conser: Yeah, that is a big part of why I Want Seconds exists, is that trying on clothes – whether you’re straight-size or plus-size – is very important because every body is going to be different. I might be a size 22, but the size 22 sitting next to me is going to be very different in proportions than I am. So being able to try on clothes and being able to make sure that it fits your body is vital to clothing.
Miller: Can you describe your store, I Want Seconds?
Conser: I Want Seconds is a plus-size resale shop. We start at extra-large, or size 14, and go up from there. We also do plus-size masculine wear, which is really, really hard to come by. You think fem types have a hard time finding clothes that are fashionable and plus-size. Masculine folk have an even harder time. So we are trying to bridge that gap. We also do fat art. So the representation is there. So when you walk in, you can see art on the walls and for sale that represents a body that you might identify with.
Miller: Is it a challenge finding clothes that still have life in them – that are second-hand but worth buying again – that fit the criteria you’re looking for? I mean, as we heard from Claire just now, there is a huge shortage of these clothes new. What about good second-hand?
Conser: I’ve been thrifting for a long time and I’ve been plus size that entire time. I would say that it is getting easier; however, it is not easy. I have a hard time finding things that aren’t fast fashion when I’m outsourcing or when I’m getting clothes from different clients. Fast fashion has really kind of filled that void for plus-size folks, which is an unfortunate reality. They saw that opportunity and jumped on it, and us plus size folks, we don’t have a lot of options, so we went right into it. And that is why we want to do resale, is that we want to keep clothes out of the landfills and keep them in rotation. If you only use it once, bring it to I Want Seconds, we will reuse it again, and again, and again.
Miller: Have people done that, bought clothes from you, worn them, used them, loved them, and then brought them back to you, and somebody else buys that same piece of clothing?
Conser: One-hundred percent.
Miller: Claire, I want to go back to the reality of these numbers you were talking about earlier. On one basic level, if you’re just thinking about capitalism and the desire for shareholders to make money, this does seem a little bit mystifying. So much money, it seems, is being left on the table. The only conclusion, or maybe I should say that the easiest conclusion I can draw is that fat phobia is a stronger force than capitalism. Is that how you see it?
Doody: Definitely part of it, for sure. And I think a lot of it is lack of education for designers and for people in the apparel world. I really pride myself on the fact that I have lived in a fat body the majority of my life and I know how my body works. I know how other fat bodies work. I know how other people live within their bodies. So unfortunately, that is something that’s not taught in fashion school and apparel programs. I went through a program, and I was one of the only larger people in it. I had to alter all my own patterns and do everything, and go so much above and beyond by myself.
That is really what I kind of view … it definitely is, you know, it’s kind of a three-pronged issue. One is definitely fat phobia and that is so prevalent in everything and especially in fashion. The lack of, like I said, education that is actually teaching designers that are coming out into the world how to do this. And then also just, honestly, the stubborn way that fashion works and that there’s a lot of rules and a lot of things that have been put in place a long time ago that really, the rule should be broken and it shouldn’t be the norm. But it is just a structure in a process that is followed and that’s something that I try not to do. It definitely can stunt the growth of it.
It is also, unfortunately, with not having a lot of designers or technicians that are in larger companies, in bigger box retail and driving the design teams that they don’t have the lived experience of larger bodies. So they are not patterning correctly. They are not actually able to produce the items in a way that when they are launched are going to be successful.
Miller: Well, this is a key point and it’s a technical one. It’s a question of craft that I think a lot of folks listening may not totally understand. So can you explain how most clothing makers create patterns and create sizing, size up the pieces of clothing? And why that doesn’t work as you get into larger pieces of clothing?
Doody: For a very basic level entry that I can explain would be, when you’re creating patterns, you create what’s called a block or a base. So usually, in standard sizes, straight sizes, you would do that at a size 6, something that’s kind of in the middle of your size range. And then you do what is called grading. So that is making the pattern larger or smaller based off of your block. And in straight sizes, you can do that with incremental growth, and it is a little bit easier to control that, because bodies tend to grow in the same way. And, especially, we talk a lot about like tissue in plus-size patterning because of the way that our bodies are composed, and the places that you have adipose tissue are in different locations. So when you’re working with larger bodies, the best way to kind of think about it is when you’re grading something you think of the Xerox, and you’re just making it bigger and bigger and bigger.
Miller: Just pushing the 102% button, the 107% button.
Doody: Exactly. But then think about that, that then your arm length is 107% longer. No one’s arms are actually that much longer. Our arms are not growing at drastic rates. Well, because our bodies are just getting bigger, our circumference is growing.
So there’s a lot of rules that are in place. They’re called grade rules, that companies will establish their own grade rules that have to do with their own sizing. So when you’re going into plus, they will be grading from something that might be 10 sizes smaller than what they’re actually trying to create. And that won’t actually be successful. And that’s where we’re running into the problem – the grade rules need to be broken above a certain size. The incremental growth is not the same, and companies that are not realizing that are coming out with 3X, 4X, 5X pieces, but they’re actually fitting more like a 1X or a 2X, because the rate of their growth within their own grade rules is incorrect.
Miller: Kelsey, I’m curious what you hear from folks who enter your store.
Conser: Well, we get people from all walks of life that come in. We are the only exclusively plus-size resale shop in all of Oregon that we are aware of. So we get people from other parts of the state, we get people from all over the world. And most of them have not experienced an exclusively plus-size resale shop before. They’ve never been into a place that caters to them.
And it can be an emotional experience for a lot of folks. I’ve had people come in and start crying because they see big bodies on the wall. They see two racks of clothing that will fit their size group. They see two big rooms dedicated exclusively to clothing that might fit their body. And it can be overpowering to have options. Because when you go to a normal resale shop and they have a plus-size section, it’s maybe a rack, at best. And in that they go from size 1X on up. So there’s maybe four or five things that you could possibly try on; and then, you know, maybe one of those fits.
But at our store it’s such a different experience. We have had people come in angry that they don’t have places like this in their cities. I get asked routinely, “Hey, when are you going to open your second location?” And I’m like, “Oh, we’re just starting out. Let me figure this one out first. I’ll help you start your own.” So it can be a wild ride of emotions, between tears, and anger, and just pure joy.
Miller: Claire, can you tell us about something you’ve created called Knockout? Travel Portland has called it arguably the most joyful fashion event the city has to offer.
Doody: Yeah. So Knockout, I created in 2016, because I noticed that there was not a really great plus-size community event that was based around fashion. Portland has an amazing indie fashion scene. I had been participating in it in lots of different shows, and a lot of times I was one or two solely plus-size designers in it. And so, we are super lucky here that we have an amazing fat fashion scene. There’s been a lot of amazing people, even before I started Copper Union 10 years ago, that have been doing it.
And so I just kind of wanted to have a space that we could fill with fat joy and that we could fill with people that don’t feel comfortable being in regular fashion show experiences, or don’t feel comfortable or welcome in that sort of world. We did our first show and I didn’t really know what to expect. It was an amazing epic event. There was a line around the block. We were sold out and have been sold out every year since then.
And it is something that, like Kelsey said, I have people come up to me at Knockout and say, “I’ve never been to a fashion show and this was one of the best days I’ve ever had.” Or, like she said as well, they come up to me in tears and are saying that they’ve never felt seen, they’ve never felt comfortable. And they are coming out and going to a show for the first time and wearing something that doesn’t have any sleeves, or they’re wearing a new dress, or they’re wearing anything that brings them joy and comfort. Both Kelsey and I are really lucky to be a part of a really great community here in Portland, and they are always showing up for us and showing off.
Conser: It’s liberating. As someone who has attended Knockout every year, it is liberating to be in a space full of larger-body humans wearing their favorite outfits, feeling themselves, and the joy that exudes is contagious.
Miller: Liberating, liberation is a very political word. I’m curious what you see as the connection – Kelsey, first – between clothing and politics?
Conser: Well, fashion gets a bad rap. We get told a lot that it’s a superficial thing. But if you really break it down and you look at it, fashion is your calling card to the world. You go out in what you want to be perceived in. I can dress one day like an adult toddler, which I do quite frequently, and I am right now.
Miller: Wait, what is an adult toddler before we get to tomorrow?
Conser: I have black overalls on with rainbow lightning bolts on. So, I do, I kind of look like a big kid. Which is fun and it hasn’t always been available to larger folks. So, embrace that.
Miller: And tomorrow, you might be … ?
Conser: I might be business-owner Kelsey who comes out with her slacks and a nice shirt, so that I can make good connections within the community, and they perceive me as I want them to. I think that fashion holds a lot of power in the world. Because, just think if the president came on TV with their sweatpants and a t-shirt on, how much credit would you give them? We all look at each other and perceive each other based on how we present, and clothing is 80% of that.
Miller: Claire, what about you? How is clothing political for you?
Doody: Clothing is extremely political. I studied costume design in undergrad. And something that we talk about in costume history and fashion history is: what influences fashion? Politics is one of them [and] religion, art, current events.
The example that I always give, which was from a lecture from undergrad, was: when we have more conservative leaders, traditional women’s wear tends to be more feminine. We tend to, if you look at the Bush era, there is lots of gaudy jewelry, lots of bold prints, lots of more soft silhouettes, versus if you look at something more of a less conservative era, or a little bit more liberal, it would be women tend to dress more masculine. There tends to be bigger shoulder pads, there tends to be suiting involved. There tends to be things that are more traditionally looked at as powerful.
And you can also go back as far as looking at ways that clothing was created before our modern age and looking at, specifically, dyes, and colors, and fabrics, and things that were reserved only for political leaders or people in power. Those have kind of trickled down, and it’s something that – fashion has always been political, as always a way that we can, like Kelsey was saying, present ourselves to the world. But also, politics completely influences the choices that designers are making, even down to fast fashion, all the way up to actual designer fashion on the runways.
Miller: Claire Doody and Kelsey Conser, thanks so much.
Doody: Of course.
Conser: Thank you.
Miller: Claire Doody is the owner and designer of Copper Union, a plus-size retailer in Portland. Kelsey Conser is the owner of I Want Seconds and a co-founder of Chub Hub.
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