The legacy of Pope Francis

The late Pope Francis brought attention to the plight of refugees and immigrants around the world, as well as to the climate crisis. He also took a different view of the role of women in the church and a more inclusive approach to gay rights and many other social issues, compared with his predecessors.

Nearly 1.5 billion Catholics around the world revere the pope and address him as “Your Holiness” or “Holy Father,” but even among non-Catholic Christians and those of other faiths, the voice and role of the pope is unique on the world stage.

As we look to the start of the conclave next week to choose his successor, we’ll reflect on Pope Francis’s legacy and how it might influence the future of the Catholic Church. We’re joined by two different Catholic leaders in Oregon. Suzanne Thiel is a bishop ordained by the Roman Catholic Womenpriests.

Frank So, a lifelong Catholic, is the executive director of Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon, which includes nearly 90 faith partners, including the Archdiocese of Portland, along with Protestant, Jewish, Muslim and Baha’i congregations.

Note: The following transcript was transcribed digitally and validated for accuracy, readability and formatting by an OPB volunteer.

Dave Miller: This is Think Out Loud on OPB. I’m Dave Miller. Pope Francis, the spiritual leader for 1.4 billion Catholics around the world, died last week at the age of 88. He brought attention to the plight of refugees and immigrants, as well as the climate crisis. He also took a different view of the role of women in the church and a more inclusive approach to LGBTQ issues than his predecessors. The conclave to choose his successor will start in just five days.

I’m joined now by two Catholic Oregonians to talk about Pope Francis’s life and legacy. Suzanne Thiel is a bishop for the Western region of the international organization Roman Catholic Womenpriests. Frank So is the executive director of Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon. It’s great to have both of you on the show.

Frank So: Thanks for having us here.

Suzanne Thiel: Thank you.

Miller: I want to start with a voicemail that we got from a listener.

OPB Listener [voicemail]: My name is Corey and I’m calling from Dallas, Oregon. I’m not a Catholic, but I am a Christian and Pope Francis has always been a voice of moral authority for me. I appreciate the way he embraced life, not just pro-life, but life in all of its forms and life meaning we take care of people, we take care of the migrants, we take care of the poor. We take care of the fatherless, the children, and the orphans, and the widows. We take care of them all. That’s the legacy of Pope Francis, someone who wasn’t afraid to speak to powerful people and tell them love has no bounds.

It’s not just love your family, not just love your countrymen, but love all people. That’s how I read the gospel and I am always grateful that Pope Francis speaks that so clearly. I also really appreciated Pope Francis’ humility. He would ask people to pray for him. I remember listening on NPR live when he accepted being Pope. He asked the world and people of goodwill to pray for him. And I have prayed for the Pope and I’m grateful that he was a voice for all of us.

Miller: Bishop Thiel, I’ve seen many people in the last week-and-a-half mention that moment from the then new Pope’s first public speech when he asked people to pray for him. Why was that so significant?

Thiel: Pope Francis is obviously a pope for everyone, or was a pope for everyone, and I think that he showed that throughout his life. He was open to all voices, all voices. And I think that from the very beginning, when he first walked out on that balcony, he’s a man that I think I would say might have been the most Jesus-like pope we’ve had in a long time. And you heard your speaker a minute ago talk about all the things he’s done, whether it’s working with the gay and lesbian population; meeting with James Martin, a well known theologian who has worked with gay rights; whether it was working with the migrants; whether he was working with putting significant women in leadership roles … he’s done a few in leadership roles in the Vatican, although he’s not met with us even though [there are] only 300 of us women priests worldwide. He’s not met with us or didn’t meet with us. We’re hoping that’ll happen at some time. But we’re doing what I think is Pope Francis’s legacy, which is inclusivity.

Miller: Frank, what do you remember about the day 13 years ago when you heard that Jorge Mario Bergoglio was named the next pope?

So: Yeah estaba muy emocionado, so to speak. I was very excited, very emotional, as someone who has been educated by Jesuits and understands the significance of having a new leader in the Catholic Church who took on the name Francis, I thought was significant, in honor of a saint who wanted to work with the poor and the most marginalized. I felt it was a good time for the church, especially with all the scandals that had been going through, to have a new face, a new vision and a new hope.

Miller: Our reporter Joni Auden Land interviewed Archbishop Sample, the Archbishop for Western for Portland – which is basically all of Oregon west of the Cascades – this week about Francis and his legacy. I want to play you part of what the Archbishop said.

Archbishop Sample [recording]: It’s a deeply Catholic thing and maybe it’s hard to explain perhaps for those who do not share our faith. But the pope, we call him the pope, we call him the supreme pontiff, we call him the Holy Father, but it’s that “father” that is the key to this. Catholics look to the pope as the universal father, as our shepherd, as the successor to Saint Peter, as the leader of the church. And they naturally love him, even if they disagree with them. There were plenty of people who disagreed with Pope Francis. There were plenty of people. And I would say in Western Oregon, [there were] probably plenty of people that disagreed with Pope Benedict the 16th or Pope Saint John Paul II. But underneath that, you love the Holy Father cause he’s your father.

Miller: Suzanne, does that ring true to you?

Thiel: Well, I’m kind of chuckling to myself a little bit because I’m thinking there’s something missing here that the Catholic faith just has a father. Where’s the mother?

Miller: I’ve heard that the church itself is the mother.

Thiel: Well, that’s what we’ve heard over and over again, but that’s kind of a hard thing to swallow sometimes. When you look at Francis, there was a motherly part to him and I think he was trying to begin to work with women. And I think it’s gonna be a long time before those changes happen, perhaps. It depends on who they choose on this conclave. It looks like you’ve got almost like a horse race as to which four maybe are gonna end up becoming.

If it’s not somebody who carries on his legacy, then I believe you’re going to have more people leaving the Catholic Church and you’ll have a very, very exclusive church and especially among women. Young women aren’t gonna take no for an answer. And I think that something’s missing. It’s wonderful that Archbishop Sample talked about the father image, but where is the mother image? There’s a big difference between a father image as a man and a mother image as a church. And I have a hard time comprehending that, quite frankly. I think we’ve all been, for lack of a better word, brainwashed by patriarchy.

Miller: I want to hear more about this. But just to go to you for a second, Frank – we put out a survey asking folks about Pope Francis’s life and legacy. What stands out to them.

One person wrote this: “Climate change, migrants and poverty are the issues that stand out to me. Laudato si’ is such an incredibly beautiful text unlike any other on climate change, and reprioritizing the poor and the forgotten was so embodied by Francis.”

“Because of Francis,” this person wrote, “I’ve applied to volunteer with Girls Beyond Bars, the Girl Scout program that works to connect incarcerated people with their families through Girl Scout programming.”

I was struck by that comment, that someone was inspired to volunteer, in this case to serve others, specifically because of Pope Francis. Have you heard that from other people?

So: I have. I think there’s a significant feeling when Pope Francis was alive that there was a move towards recognizing less the regalia of the church, and more of where the humans are and what their needs are.

Miller: No more Prada slippers.

So: Exactly. He often discussed the church being a field hospital. I think in his mind the church had to go to the people and it had to really look at what the people needed the most. When the pope issued the encyclical, which is a pretty heavy document and an important document in the Catholic Church on our responsibility – not just why it’s important to protect the environment, but our response moral responsibility to ensure that there’s justice for the creation that has been made by us and maintained, and should be maintained by us – it brought especially a lot of younger people to listen to what the pope had to say.

The three areas that you just talked about – poverty, immigrants and the environment – are all areas where, in my organization, we have seen more of an impetus to get involved in social justice matters. Not necessarily as a Catholic matter or religious matter, but more of an issue that’s bringing younger people and people of goodwill, not necessarily even people who believe, to come to Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon, and also volunteer and spend their time to hold up that legacy.

Miller: Suzanne Thiel, how did Pope Francis address the ongoing aftermath of the global clergy abuse scandal?

Thiel: Well, I think he made a real effort to try to deal with that. This is very personal to me because one of the main priests here in Portland that was accused and actually went to Troutdale to jail, Thomas Laughlin, was a friend of our family [who] baptized my older son. So it’s certainly an issue for all of us.

I believe that if women had been on leadership in the Catholic Church, of course you would have sexual abuse issues, but you wouldn’t have the same amount or the same degree. I don’t think we women, we grandmothers, we mothers would have tolerated it. And I think the men just didn’t have all that experience. I think he’s definitely put in place … remember there was, what is it, no tolerance process, but it’s still going on, it’s still going on. Maybe it’s related to celibacy. Some people think it is, some people don’t. But they’ve still got to look at it and I think that’s the reason a lot of Catholics have left the faith. I hear that over and over again with my chaplaincy in hospital. They’ll say, “I used to be Catholic,” and then they get to that abuse issue and they just can’t get over it.

Miller: I mentioned in my intro that you are a bishop for the West region of the International Organization Roman Catholic Womenpriests. What does that mean?

Thiel: Well, it means that we have a U.S.A. organization and we’re broken down into geographical regions. I am the bishop for the Western region. What it means is that way back almost 25 years ago, women were ordained – you heard it before the Danube Seven – by a male bishop on the Danube River. And since then, again, a woman named Patricia Fresen, who happened to have been a nun of 40 years from South Africa, was ordained and ordains us.

So I have apostolic succession. I’m gonna say that out loud, real loud because people go, “Well, how can you possibly be a bishop?” I have what we call in the Catholic Church apostolic succession. It’s like a lineage, meaning male bishops ordained the male bishops who ordained me. So my ordinations are valid, but they are illicit against canon law because a woman cannot be a priest.

Miller: Did any of that change under Pope Francis? You said that he put some women in church leadership. You didn’t say that he named a woman a priest, or a bishop, or a cardinal. So, did anything change in a meaningful way in terms of the role that women can play under Francis?

Thiel: Well, I think two things really occurred. He did put them in leadership positions. However, he didn’t put them or ordain women. You remember the famous Norah O’Donnell, when she was on a plane, or in the interview, asked him “well, what about my younger …” What did she have, a daughter or granddaughter? “Will she ever be able to be ordained?” And he said, “No.”

But I think he’s been trying to hold the church together. Because we have progressives and conservatives, definitely polarization in the Catholic Church, I think he’s been trying to hold it together. And I think that by putting those women in those leadership positions, that’s a start. But he’s not put women in what I call pastoral leadership – the sacraments, marrying people, doing baptism, and dealing with the marginalized and all the people that have been upset about what’s going on.

The Catholic Church puts a lot of guilt trips on people and the people are still suffering from those. So he didn’t do that yet. We’re hoping that’s going to happen. I hope the next pope will carry on. He also had the commission studying the diaconate and let’s hope that’ll be the first step, because once you get the women and as deacons, the priesthood will eventually follow.

Miller: I want to play one more excerpt from our reporter Joni Auden Land’s interview with Archbishop Sample. A few times the archbishop mentioned that he was hoping for clarity from the new pope on what he called moral issues. So Joni asked if the Archbishop was referring to questions about LGBTQ people or divorce. This was the Archbishop’s answer.

Archbishop Sample [recording]: Well, I think there were, there were questions raised during the pontificate, especially through the apostolic exhortation on marriage and Amoris Laetitia, where there was some question around, well, what is the current practice? Not the teaching. The Holy Father Pope Francis, I can say, unequivocally never called into question the church’s teachings on issues of life, on issues of human sexuality and issues of the sacraments including marriage. He never deviated from the teachings of the church, but I think he was trying to introduce a new pastoral approach, if you will, to engaging with these good people. These are some of the people that maybe feel a little bit distanced from the church and they feel maybe that the church has not been a mother to them. And that’s what the Holy Father kept emphasizing: the church is our mother.

So I think that’s gonna be the difficult thing to navigate and I think that’s the challenge for the church right now. It’s a challenge for the next Holy Father – how do we passionately care for, how do we passionately love and welcome all of God’s children without compromising the teachings of the gospel, and quite honestly, the 2,000-year teachings of the church? So these are challenging times to navigate and I think that they’re delicate issues. We never want anyone to feel that they are unloved, or unworthy, or somehow they’re less of a human being because maybe they don’t completely adhere to the church’s moral tradition. But that all are loved by God and how do we find a way to show that, to demonstrate that, to live that, without watering down or or compromising on the teachings of the church. It’s a challenge, there’s no doubt.

Miller: Frank, what stands out to you in what you just heard from the Archbishop?

So: Those people, we are all one people. I think that is important for us to remember. And as the archbishop said, it’s a matter of showing love for all. There is a definite tension between some Catholics … and I felt it amongst many of my friends who are diehard Catholics, and they love the tradition and the values of social justice. And they are gay, they are lesbian. The pope brought that love, that pastoral care, as the archbishop mentioned, to the forefront. And more importantly, there were moments where the pope was even asked about those who are queer and said, “Nor do I have the right answers, nor do I have the right questions.”

I think what the pope really tried to do was to challenge us to think about our own actions, our own relationships with God, not necessarily the hierarchy or the traditions alone. I think, to me, when I hear the archbishop say that, I focus more on what does it mean to love everyone and how do we actually put that into practice as Catholics here in Oregon?

Miller: But there are very practical questions, Suzanne, about who can receive the sacraments, who can take communion. And the archbishop was getting to this in careful wording. But I guess I’m wondering what you think it means to show love officially from the church to people whose core identities or the way they’re living their lives goes against the church’s teachings. How do you square those?

Thiel: Well, I want to start with the fact that I think you have to show love towards women. And I am reminded that in this diocese, looking at that chrism mass last week before Easter, you saw 147 male priests walk into that cathedral, which was packed, two-by-two, bow to the altar, kiss the altar. In front of them were 15 or so altar boys, 5th, 6th, 7th graders, and not a woman or a girl in sight. That’s the issue on the table. Until the men in the Curia in the Vatican began to sit down and really talk with women, and begin to look at what we’ve been doing for over 20 years. We’ve been living the vision of Jesus as women priests.

Miller: What’s the vision of Jesus?

Thiel: I think you, Frank, talked about love. Of course it’s love, but it’s inclusivity. It’s welcoming everyone to the table. We welcome everyone to communion. We welcome everyone. We’re not going to be that exclusive – and it is. And I think religion and teachings of the Catholic Church needs some real evaluation. In my way of looking at faith or religion, it’s not necessarily static. There’s an evolution of religion and you’re seeing that happen. You’re seeing all kinds of people in chaos about what they believe? Look at all of the wonderful things and discoveries we’ve had about the universe, for instance.

So what we were taught … and I’m a good catechism graduate from our Lady of the Lake Parish or Holy Child Academy, which used to be over in Sandy, or even Santa Clara University. But a lot of what we were taught just doesn’t make sense anymore. It doesn’t make sense to our young people. I don’t know about you, Frank, but my three adult sons all went to Catholic school and they’re not practicing Catholicism at all. You’ve got a very elitist small group. Unless this new pope continues the legacy of being open, being a pope for all voices, open to all voices, a pope for everyone, you’re going to have an issue.

Miller: As you’re saying this, I was reminded of another fact that I’ve seen a lot in the last week-and-a-half, which is that the fastest growing Catholic communities on Earth are not in North America, South America or Europe, not in places with large progressive Catholic communities, but they are in Africa and I think maybe to a lesser extent in Asia.

Frank, first – how do you think that affected Pope Francis’s edicts and actions, the fact that there are very few changes to church doctrine, even in someone who put forward a more inclusive way of talking?

So: Sure. Just made one quick comment on what Bishop Thiel said – I’m a strong proponent of having more inclusivity in the church. I think the role of women is one that I personally would love to see increase in the hierarchy and in the structure of the church.

Thiel: So are you going to come to that ordination that we’re going to do in Beaverton on the weekend here, where we’re going to ordain another woman priest right here in Beaverton, Oregon?

So: Absolutely.

Thiel: I’ll look for you.

So: I think that what we’re talking about and when we’re talking about this pope, we’re talking about inclusivity, we’re talking about the Global South. And when you mentioned Africa, when you mentioned some of the largest Catholic populations are not just the Irish, they’re in Brazil, they’re in the south, they’re in the Philippines. They are in Asia. Korea has seen a much growing Catholic community.

What we’re looking at is a pope who’s bringing the church to the people, and that’s what the pope has done. The pope took so many trips abroad, has met with so many young people. And I think Pope Francis’s desire was not just to take the church to the people, though that was a large part of it, but it was to talk about how we celebrate being a Catholic. And as Bishop Thiel said, there’s a lot of guilt associated with being a Catholic.

The pope tried to bring joy, joy for those that are marginalized, joy for a lot of people in the Global South, in Africa, in Asia and in those communities that needed it. He recognized that there were and there still are genuine concerns, whether it’s climate change, whether it’s poverty, whether it’s welcoming your neighbor, and that includes immigrants. The Catholic Church’s responsibilities are not just to be evangelical, but it’s to really care for the people and those people in those southern Global South countries needed to hear that.

Miller: Well, Suzanne, let me sharpen the question because I guess the way I have heard this – and I ask this as a non-Catholic – is that the line that Pope Francis was walking and that potentially his successor will have to walk, choose to walk, potentially because who knows what kind of political views they’ll have … but if Francis had pushed harder in maybe in the direction you desperately want him and the church to go, that he risked a true schism in the growing and more conservative parts of global Catholicism.

I guess I’m wondering if you say, so be it, bring on the schism and let there be a more progressive Catholic Church and a more conservative one, if that’s what it takes to have women be fully accepted in at least part of the Catholic Church?

Thiel: Well, I would be sad about a break, quite frankly, because I think even the word Catholic is universal. So I cannot comprehend why we can’t have it all. Why can’t we have the Latin mass that my mother religiously loved? Why can’t we have the progressive Catholics and some of our worshiping communities? I think of the upper room in New York or I think of Holy Wisdom up in Olympia, Washington, where the people are the church, not the hierarchy. The people are really the ones saying the words of communion or the consecration, but why can’t the church have an umbrella and be all of that?

I think what’s happened is, again, we’re stuck on these teachings being static. And there must be the faith. What exactly is the deposit of faith? I had somebody ask me that the other day. I don’t think even Catholics know what that is.

Miller: I don’t know what that is. What deposit of faith is.

Thiel: So you have some very, very traditional Catholics, but I’m not sure they even know half of what they’ve been taught or where we’re at. I think that we do have leadership here in Portland in the Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church, and I’m not talking about the women priests, but I don’t see that inclusivity. I see the opposite, especially what happened with, for instance, the Catholic-Lutheran group.

Now, you’re dealing with Ecumenical other denominations. That’s one thing we women priests have been very open in, working with the other denominations and other faiths. I’m not seeing that, exactly, in real life from the leadership that you have right now in Portland. Maybe you can correct me, but I know you’re a part of it, but I’m not seeing that.

So: Sure. To that point, Bishop Thiel’s sons and I went to the same high school, Valley Catholic …

Thiel: Valley Catholic

So: … which is under the care of the Sisters of Saint Mary’s of Oregon, a great order of Catholic sisters. And I would say I’ve seen strong women in leadership, maybe not in the archdiocese, with the exception of Sister Veronica Schuler, who’s been a great interlocutor for Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon.

Obviously, there’s always that desire to be more inclusive and I think it’s a challenge. Some people would say it’s a fight to have women in more different positions within the Catholic Church, and it’s a real struggle because we want to see that. But to create … I don’t know if the Catholics ourselves are wanting, as the bishop said, to create a schism. Instead of trying to break something, I think we’re trying to see it flow or transform into a different type of Catholic Church.

Miller: In the time we have left, I’d love to hear from both of you what you think you’ll most remember about Pope Francis. Frank?

So: I would say joy. The pope brought a lot of joy, whether it was sharing with comedians or bringing animals to the papal front. The pope really brought what it means to be human and how we all have different roles as Catholics in the church, but to bring love and joy, and not just guilt as a Catholic.

Miller: Bishop Thiel?

Thiel: I would say that my memory or visual where I remember seeing him wash the feet of the women and the other people in prisons. He did that on several Holy Thursdays, I think. The other one that comes to my mind is when the young boy was in the audience somewhere, came right up to him and where he actually hugged him. I have memories of a real Jesus-like Pope.

Miller: Suzanne Thiel and Frank So, thanks very much.

Thiel: Thank you.

So: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Miller: Suzanne Thiel is a bishop for the Western region of the international organization Roman Catholic Womenpriests. Frank So is the executive director of Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon.

“Think Out Loud®” broadcasts live at noon every day and rebroadcasts at 8 p.m.

Contact “Think Out Loud®”

If you’d like to comment on any of the topics in this show or suggest a topic of your own, please get in touch with us on Facebook, send an email to thinkoutloud@opb.org, or you can leave a voicemail for us at 503-293-1983. The call-in phone number during the noon hour is 888-665-5865.