If there’s one thing Americans can agree on, it’s that the country is sharply divided. But supporters of debate teams in public schools say the activity could actually increase the chances of opposing sides working together. The Portland Urban Debate League wants to make sure that students at every public high school have a chance to learn debate skills and compete. Mallory Copeland is the interim executive director of the League. Lesly Valdivia-Marquez is a senior at McDaniel High School and a competitive debater. She and Copeland join us to tell us more about what they love about debate, and why they think it should be available at every high school.
This transcript was created by a computer and edited by a volunteer.
Dave Miller: We need more debate. That is one of the ideas at the heart of Portland’s Urban Debate League (PUDL). To be clear, they’re not talking about more people screaming at each other or throwing around anecdotes and falsehoods to buttress their arguments. They’re focused on high school competitions that reward critical thinking, evidence gathering, careful listening and public speaking. But those competitions have largely been opportunities for students at wealthier high schools and that is where the Debate League comes in. They’ve been creating debate clubs for students from low-income backgrounds who attend under-resourced schools. Mallory Copeland is the Interim Executive Director of the League. Lesly Valdivia-Marquez is a senior at McDaniel High School and a competitive debater. Welcome to you both.
Mallory Copeland: Thanks so much for having us.
Miller: Mallory, first. What is the idea behind the Portland Urban Debate League?
Copeland: I think that you summed it up pretty well. Our focus is creating more debate opportunities for students at schools where there are larger populations of students on free and reduced lunch, more students of color, making sure that they have opportunities to learn about research, advocacy, public speaking skills and also the community that comes from doing policy debate.
Miller: So, is it the case that if it weren’t for this league, there simply wouldn’t be policy debate teams at some of these schools?
Copeland: Yes. Without the Portland Urban Debate League–which helps fund all of the tournaments and students compete at our tournaments for free and provides resources to them–a lot of these debate programs, possibly the one at McDaniel as well, would not exist. So we’re very lucky to be able to be doing this work and we’re expanding into yet another high school this fall. We’re hoping to get another debate program set up at Franklin High School.
Miller: In Portland. Lesly, why did you sign up for debate?
Lesly Valdivia-Marquez: I am hoping to study law and become a lawyer as well when I go off to college and into the adult world outside of high school. My freshman year, we didn’t have a debate program and my sophomore year was the first year that we had a debate program here and I didn’t even second guess myself and just went for it.
Miller: And was it, even as a sophomore, the idea was, I know I want to be a lawyer and this will be a way for me to sharpen my argumentation skills and or public speaking?
Valdivia-Marquez: And not only that, it helps with a lot of things like even my English classes. When we’re having to write essays and having to look for outside sources for things, it really sharpens your ability to research and put together arguments in a way that is cohesive and understandable. And it’s so much more than just being able to argue with someone on whether or not we should be amending a country’s constitution. It’s basic everyday skills that you’re going to need.
Miller: When you first started or before you started doing debate, how would you have described yourself?
Valdivia-Marquez: Oh my God. I was very quiet, very shy which is so not at all what I am now. I even told one of my teachers from this year that I was a very, very quiet and shy freshman and he did not believe me. He was very shocked to hear that because obviously I’m on here speaking with you today. Freshman year me would not have done this, probably not even sophomore me, but I think after having even just my first year of debate, helped me really get out of my shell and be able to put myself out there in the world and be more comfortable with
public speaking and just sharing my experiences.
Miller: Was it trial by fire? I mean, so if it changed you, is it because it forced you to do things that you found to be uncomfortable but then you realized you could do them?
Valdivia-Marquez: When you’re doing policy debate, you’re talking about things that you’re not going to be finding a sophomore talking about like arms races in Afghanistan or anywhere else, other than debate really. I had a debate tournament this weekend and I was talking about the IX Article in the Japanese Constitution. I would never have felt comfortable talking about any of these kinds of things and I never would have thought that I would do well trying to talk about these sorts of subjects. Even just being in a room where it’s just me and my partner and just even one judge was definitely a very frightening thing for me starting out, but once you get put in that situation and you realize that this is something that can work for you, it makes it so much easier to continue going to these competitions, continue doing this work and encouraging others to do so as well.
Miller: Mallory Copeland, can you explain how these competitions actually work? What’s the mechanism?
Copeland: Yes. So because we keep it pretty insular to the PUDL community, we send out invitations to our tournaments. The PUDL staff is at this point just me and work study students, but we have wonderful board volunteers who do a lot of work for us as well. We set up these tournaments. We had our first in-person tournament this past February for the first time in two years which was so exciting. So we set these up and we have an online forum where we keep track of wins and losses. It does the winners-face-winners type of tabulation for us. We send students to rooms, we recruit judges. The judges usually have some sort of debate background, so they are pretty knowledgeable about what they’re speaking on and they come and donate their time to us and judge some debates and we give away awards at the end of the day.
Miller: And Lesly, my understanding is that for any given topic, you have to both be prepared and then actually argue for and against something, right? You have to do both of those the same day?
Valdivia-Marquez: Yes, that is correct.
Miller: What’s that like to prepare to and then to actually argue completely opposite points of view?
Valdivia-Marquez: When you first hear the topic and you’re building your cases, there’s definitely a lot of cognitive dissonance. You’re getting a lot of contradictory information or even information within one source that’s on both sides. And so you’re kind of like, well, which one is the right side? And most of the time there isn’t really a right or wrong side. And I think that’s the whole point of debate is learning to see things from different perspectives. I think starting out with any resolution even now as a senior doing debate, at the beginning. I’ll still hear one case, I’m like, oh my God, this is so good and think there’s no way you argue for the other side. And then you learn about the other side and there’s actually things that are really important to consider on both sides. And so once you get over the idea that there has to be a right and wrong or that you have to pick a side, it’s much easier to put personal opinions aside. You might end up not even having at the end of the day a firm opinion on things.
Miller: Has that bled into other aspects of your life where you actually did have firm opinions about things, but now you’re more inclined to see the other side?
Valdivia-Marquez: Yes, where I most sense this actually would be the interpersonal relationships with other people. I think one of the hard things about just being a person is you will have perceptions of everyone and everyone else’s opinions. I think learning to see things on both sides makes it easier when I talk to my super, mega religious family and we’ll have conflicting points of view. Learning to put myself in their shoes helps to just be able to continue a relationship with them or just in my own debate classroom because it’s not just a team, we also have a class. And so it comes in pretty handy when we’re told, hey, go up there and say something that you completely do not agree with but make it sound like you agree. It comes in a little handy, just a little.
Miller: Haha. Mallory Copeland, we’ve been talking more here about the personal impact that taking part in debate can have on students. But I’m curious what you think about the societal impacts of work like this because we’re at a point where, you know, “debate” is often just people using random things they saw online or an anecdote from their cousin as bits of evidence as they yell at each other. Can high school debate fix that?
Copeland: I think that something we’ve all learned in the past couple of years, especially with online debates in comment sections and things like that, is that presenting more information doesn’t tend to change people’s minds. But I think what debate gives students is a way to really research their positions, an understanding of what makes good and bad sources, and a better understanding of how to communicate instead of just asserting that I’m right and another person is wrong. I’ve seen that carry over with quite a few debate students out in the real world who are working in policy positions, who are lawyers, how they’ve taken this truly phenomenal activity that you can participate in and use those research skills, use those communication skills to overcome some obstacles that have come into their path.
Miller: Lesly, how do you think about the fact that if it weren’t for this nonprofit, you wouldn’t have had this opportunity and that’s not the case at schools in wealthier neighborhoods?
Valdivia-Marquez: Well, I’m just very grateful that I do have the opportunity. I think beyond the skills that you get from debate, you also get a community and there are a lot of kids in our program who really get a lot out of this. I worry less for myself than I do for my peers who have benefitted so much from it–people who struggle in other areas of their life and come to debate and are able to find their place here. There are people who are now able to get scholarships to go to college from doing debate. And, I don’t know how things would look for some of these students without having the Portland Urban Debate League giving us the opportunity to compete and to get these skills.
Miller: Lesly Valdivia-Marquez and Mallory Copeland, thanks very much.
Copeland: Thank you so much.
Miller: Lesly Valdivia-Marquez is a senior at McDaniel High School and a member of the debate team. Mallory Copeland is in their final year at Lewis and Clark Law School, final month and a half, really, and is the Interim Director of the Portland Urban Debate League.
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