MusicOregon recently embarked on a statewide listening tour to hear from musicians, venue owners and others in the industry. The nonprofit held sessions online and in Hood River, Tillamook, Salem, Eugene, Jacksonville, Bend and Pendleton to get a sense of how the music industry is faring across the state. Music professionals can also share their thoughts with the organization through an online survey.
Tim Wilson is the board president of MusicOregon. He joins us to share what they learned about Oregon’s music landscape.
Note: The following transcript was transcribed digitally and validated for accuracy, readability and formatting by an OPB volunteer.
Dave Miller: From the Gert Boyle Studio at OPB, this is Think Out Loud. I’m Dave Miller. Members of the nonprofit MusicOregon went on a statewide listening tour this spring and summer. They talked to musicians, venue owners and other folks to find out what challenges the music industry is facing right now in Oregon and what opportunities there are as well. Tim Wilson is the board president of MusicOregon. He was a part of the tour and he joins us now to talk about what he learned. It’s great to have you on the show.
Tim Wilson: Thanks for having me, Dave.
Miller: How did you choose the locations that you went to?
Wilson: Well, we really wanted to reach the various corners of the state, so we were looking for places. We wanted to go to the coast, so we focused on the North Coast. And then, we went to some sort of key hubs. Salem seemed obvious because it’s the capital, Eugene as well, as a thriving university community. And then for Southern Oregon, it was actually the little trickiest part because there’re many different places. We first focused on Ashland. But as we got to know some folks in the community, as we were scouting, somebody said, well, actually, Jacksonville would be perfect because it’s kind of equidistant in the region, so people can come from Ashland, Medford and Grants Pass. It’s about 30 minutes from each location.
So that’s basically how we went about doing it. But then we just wanted to catch Central Oregon and Eastern Oregon. So, the idea was just to touch every corner of the state.
Miller: Can you give us a sense for the variety of professions or backgrounds of the people who showed up?
Wilson: Yeah, it was pretty diverse. So of course, the majority were musicians, but we had people from festivals, who are programming festivals. We had people from independent venues. We had a few presenters from presenting organizations like the Tower Theatre in Bend. We had people from recording and production. We had a few artist managers. We had people in music education. It’s pretty broad, because I think often when you think of music, you’re thinking of actually the musicians and maybe a recording engineer, but there’s a whole industry that supports music. And I think we did a good job of kind of reaching all of those different sectors.
Miller: What was the biggest issue that came up or the issue that came up most often, regardless of the roles that people are playing within this broad musical ecosystem?
Wilson: I think the number one issue was the sense of isolation and disconnection. And I think sometimes, even within a community or an immediate region, there are barriers and it’s just really hard to know who’s doing what, who’s out there, and allies, and potential prospects or partners. So, for example, on the North Coast, those communities on the North Coast are pretty far apart, so there are pockets of where there’s connections, networks among musicians and venues. But across that region, it’s really hard to connect because there’s just enough distance that people don’t necessarily know one another. And then when you…
Miller: So just to stick with that for a second, if you’re a bass player in Seaside, people may be less likely to know you when they’re in Tillamook and to call you for a gig?
Wilson: Yeah, sometimes it’s as simple as, OK, my bass player got sick and I’m looking for a replacement for a gig. And without these networks, it’s really, really hard to fill in those gaps and those needs. So yes, I think it’s a matter of musician to musician. It’s a matter of the kind of musician to venue, that there are disconnects. And then you layer on top of that the disconnects across the state. So folks in Southern Oregon may have a kind of a very tenuous relationship to musicians or venues in Eastern Oregon. That sense of isolation gets exacerbated as you sort of look across the state.
So, I think this need to be able to connect, to actually have a place where you can post a question, or find somebody who’s doing a particular type of work, or look for prospects, that sense of connection, because it’s not just a social thing, it’s really about business and creativity. We really believe that the ability to connect folks will really greatly enhance the scene in Washington, both creatively, and kind of business-wise and opportunity-wise for musicians, venues and other music professionals.
Miller: So is this something that your organization is going to take on?
Wilson: Yes, so the first thing that we’re gonna be doing coming out of the listening session, one of the first products, will be kind of a new CRM – a customer relationship manager – that will have an embedded directory and forum so that we can create networks within the community, and within a region, and then across the state. And it could be by locality, it could be by genre, it could be by role. So there’s a forum for music engineers, for example. That’s gonna be one of the first products that we’ll roll out, hopefully by early next year.
Miller: What about a way for audience members to connect to music? My understanding is that some people talked about a related version of connection, which is that people where I live don’t even know that shows are happening.
Wilson: Yeah.
Miller: So whose responsibility is that?
Wilson: Well, the whole dynamic of audiences, and the relationship between audiences, musicians and venues has really changed since the pandemic, and we are still kind of recovering. This is not just a local issue or an Oregon issue. This is kind of national and international. We’re still in the process of recovering.
So in terms of promotion, directly to your question, I think social media now is increasingly important, and venues expect musicians to be proficient in their own social media to be able to kind of draw an audience. But first and foremost, the venue is promoting its concerts and its events at whatever scale, so they are the primary. But they really rely on social media and the audience built in for a particular musician or act to be able to support the work that they’re doing as the host.
Miller: Do the venues think that the artists understand this part of the contract? I mean, in a sense, it doesn’t seem like it’s a written contract. It’s more like you’re saying venues expect artists to bring their own audiences with them?
Wilson: Yes, precisely.
Miller: But do artists expect the venues to do that for them?
Wilson: This is an excellent point and an excellent question, because I think there is a pretty wide gap between what the venues expect and how the musicians are able to kind of fulfill that expectation. I think some of them understand on some level that they have to be active on social media, but I’m not sure … musicians. This is an opportunity to educate the field, and the musicians to be sort of more proficient in their social media, to understand that they have a role.
But on the other hand, I think that that’s kind of unreasonable. I think that venues also have to find a way to build their audience. And I think a really good venue is one that really understands their community and the types of music that their community is looking for. So there’s a balance between educating musicians and educating venues on how to better understand and meet the needs musically, if you will, of their community.
Miller: I want to go back to the language you were using earlier. If I heard you correctly, you said that we’re still recovering from the pandemic, the pandemic-era closures of venues and the seismic shift in audience expectations. But six-plus years since the start of the pandemic, can you still say that we’re recovering, or do we have to acknowledge that we’re in a different phase…
Wilson: The new normal…
Miller: Yeah, that hackneyed phrase, but every now and then that hackneyed phrase, I think, maybe is right. Is it past time to start to talk about recovery and time to say this is what we have now, we have to deal with it?
Wilson: I think, yes. That’s a big part of this is that we have to understand … Because one of the things that came up is that there’s kind of an oversaturation in some markets in terms of the number of venues. Audiences have become a little bit harder to understand in terms of what brings them out. And I think right now economically, cost of getting a babysitter, parking, just gas to be able to get to the venue, to the show, the ticket price – which are increasing – all of these things, economically, are kind of inhibiting audiences. That’s not related to the pandemic now. It’s just a response to the economy that we’re experiencing that we’re living in.
On the venue side, audience behavior at venues is changing, so folks are drinking less. And this has had a big impact on the economic model that music presenting, and music in venues and bars, and so on has really relied on for many years. So if people are drinking…
Miller: What was that model that worked for decades?
Wilson: Well, so there might be a small door fee to get in the door, or there might be a ticket. And then that would sort of help pay for stuff, but the venue would make its money at the bar. And that’s less and less true. So, as people drink less, economically, they need to rely on ticket prices to be able to make it work for them. That’s been a huge change for venues to be able to grapple with that. So the venues are also constrained and really challenged in this environment in economic ways.
Miller: You found a lot of people all around the state pointing out what they see as a gap, that musicians know how to make music but not necessarily how to run the business side of music. It almost seems like the social media or the promotion piece we were talking about earlier is a piece of this, but it’s not all. So what kinds of examples come to mind? What did you hear from people?
Wilson: I think social media is one part where we could help sort of build social media kind of chops, if you will. I think another issue is just managing business. How do you manage yourself as a business? And because I think all musicians are not thinking of themselves first and foremost as a business. So just like getting an LLC, this is really something that’s important for business, and liability issues, having an LLC. But I would say there’s a huge percentage of musicians out there that are operating without that. So understanding what liability issues and how you organize yourself as a business entity, and then how you manage a tour, how you budget, how you work contracts. All of those things I think that we could do. MusicOregon, directly or indirectly, can support efforts to raise musicians’ understanding, appreciation and knowledge about how to manage themselves as business entities.
Miller: Who’s doing this well right now, that kind of outreach or education?
Wilson: That’s a great question. I would say the best spot is surprisingly in Klamath Falls. In Klamath Falls, there’s a little organization, a nonprofit called Klamath Music, and they are doing an excellent job of educating venues and musicians. They have regular forums and workshops. They do a small festival, and it’s really an excellent location. And it’s sort of surprising for this kind of rural Southern Oregon community, but they are in many ways kind of the model that we’re seeking to develop across the state. They have buy-in from local businesses, from the venues, from city council, so it’s been a really, I think, remarkable success.
Miller: How much did Portland come up in your conversations with people in the music industry outside of Portland? You were on the North Coast. You were in Bend, Southern Oregon, in Pendleton. How much did people bring up Portland?
Wilson: First of all, Portland is the largest city. It’s kind of the music center in the industry. There are just more resources, players and infrastructure here. But I think – and this is a reflection as much about MusicOregon as it is about the industry – there was a sense that people were resistant to having the needs and the industry being developed from Portland out to them, being, “OK, we’re gonna decide what works for you” and try to dictate how things should work across the state…
Miller: That’s a music version of a very, very common sentiment in our state.
Wilson: Yes, kind of top down, we’re the big guns. We’ll decide what’s right. What we’ve set out to do – and it’s reflected in this listening tour – [is] we’re building a statewide board to really build it bottom up, so that we have input, that we have stakeholders, we have leadership across the state that can sort of help us meet the needs of those communities. And then there may not be a one-size-fits-all answer here, Dave. So what works, what’s important or what’s needed in Southern Oregon may be very different from what’s needed at the coast. And we need to acknowledge that and work through that in order to make these changes.
Miller: One of the issues that came up specifically from venue operators that you talked to is challenges that they have in dealing with PROs – performance or performing rights organizations. This is not something that the normies who just go to concerts have to think about or may be familiar with. What are PROs and what are the issues that venues are dealing with?
Wilson: PROs are organizations that a composer, a singer-songwriter, a musician will join. And to be able to ensure that when someone performs or uses their music, they are compensated for that performance. So they are literally managing the rights of individual writer’s, composer’s work.
Miller: A noble idea that says that for someone’s artistic product, creation, that they should get compensation for it?
Wilson: Exactly. So when PROs are enforcing those rights, they ask venues or they require venues to pay a licensing fee. And even for a small venue, a licensing fee can range from $600 to $800. But it gets complicated, Dave, because there’s not just one PRO. There are now four PROs – ASCAP, BMI and CISAC are the major ones. So each one of those organizations can go to a venue to ask for that or require that fee. Even a little venue can suddenly be looking at a $2,400 or more bill, on top of all their other overhead. And what’s happened is that upfront cost and licensing fees will just force, in many cases, and has forced venues to stop programming. So it could be a cafe, it could be a restaurant, because they simply cannot figure out a way financially to recover that licensing fee in tickets, food sales, bar sales or whatever it might be.
Miller: And this is a bigger issue for the smaller venues, entry point of the music ecosystem in a sense.
Wilson: Yeah, exactly. For the major venues, for Rev Hall, it’s probably not as big an issue as it is going to be for a little neighborhood cafe that has music on Friday nights. Across rural Oregon, these small venues are offering music as a way to connect to their community, build their business and serve the community. So it’s not really driven by a business motivation. It’s a real problem, especially in smaller rural communities.
Miller: When are you next going to see live music?
Wilson: Oh boy, I manage a couple of artists, and my artist Seffarine is doing a brand new show at the PRAx Center on October 14, so we’ll be doing a residency there. I’ll be there all week as we develop and rehearse the new show.
Miller: Tim, thanks very much.
Wilson: Thanks for having me, Dave.
Miller: Tim Wilson is board president for MusicOregon.
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